As many of you already experience and recognize, we feel this blog has some of the most insightful readers and commentors of any fan blog on the internet. It is a regular experience to read an entry on our blog and learn a lot more from the resulting conversation in the comments section than you learn from the original author.
With this said, I thought that it would be interesting to introduce a new excercise whereby we engage all of the talent that we have at the blog and ask for you to take a more active role in what ultimately is posted as entries here. (I will be traveling and won’t be around much this week so it is a good time to give this a try).
Here is what we are going to do — I am going to provide a topic and ask our readers to provide comments on this topic. We hope that the comments will be diverse and will include links, statistics, editorial comments and maybe even some personal experiences. Some of you may choose to take a stab at writing an entire article; others may choose just to provide some key statistics and records. We hope to ultimately copy and paste the information and commentary and create an important entry for the blog that we can add to our archives for future use. (Don’t hesitate to run some key word searches on SFN while making use of our archives!)
The topic today is brought to us by two members of this year’s Final Four - UCLA and UNC-CH. Today, the Bruins and the Tarheels are coached by Ben Howland and Roy Williams, respectively. But, just a few years ago both institutions had different faces leading the charge. (In fact, Carolina went through a seven year stretch where they employed four different basketball coaches and ALL FOUR of them reached the Final Four).
Since this is an NC State blog, let’s tie NC State to this by asking the question - over the last 15 years, how has the manner in which NC State’s “leadership” has managed our Basketball program compare to the decisions and moves that UCLA (Steve Lavin) and UNC (Matt Doherty and Bill Guthridge) have chosen. Particularly, how does Lee Fowler’s decisions to retain Herb Sendek from 2000-2006 compare to UCLA and UNC’s decisions?
To get you started, allow us to turn your attention to this old SFN entry that we found with a five second search of our database. In addition to some great editorial comments in the discussion section that would be relevant to this, the following summary for Steve Lavin’s career at UCLA was provided.
Lavin’s quick record: 7 Seasons; 6 NCAA Bids; 5 Sweet 16’s; 1 Elite Eight
Lastly, if you weren’t online much this weekend then we ask that you play around a little and do some reading. For example, we’ve got a couple of “bytes” entries that received a lot of attention on Saturday and on Friday.
Two things are needed a NCSU at the present time-1.Leadership-someone who knows what it takes to build and maintain a topnotch program of Athletics 2.Someone who truly cares about the university-He or she must have a passion for making NCSU a the very best it can be-A tireless work ethic-A never give up attitude-A ever working love for the university in personal and professional life.It takes new ideas in a ever changing world of athletics in all sports to compete at a high level.This would be a start-so the soer the better-we’re falling behind every day goes by.I will always bleed RED-GO PACK!!
SFN: We’ll had a third criteria of the current need - intelligence. I don’t mean the raw sense of the word. But, more of a real-world intelligence that has an innate ability to understand the realities of our situations and how those realities compare to other universities.
I really don’t know about ‘inside details’ of other schools’ programs with which to compare State’s athletic management ['management' is what we have, not leadership}.
The comparison to UCLA is more apt than UNCCH, as their basketball [and football] programs have been ‘down’ since our 1974 BB win. They have had periods of achievement since, but no consistent program-building until recent times. Achievement in program-building of their RIVALS seems to have been a factor in their own recent success, providing players the ‘challenge’ to go to UCLA and go up against the programs that found them ‘not quite good enough to provide an offer to rival schools.
Clearly, because of [no] results at NCSU, we haven’t had the AD or Chancellor requiring accountability for coaching or team performance. The AD’s only job has, apparently, been to find a way to secure a consistent revenue stream for athletics. Do THAT, and you get ‘awards’ and publicity for amazing “performance.” Consistent, prolonged fan extortion is considered ’success.’
Our ’sports management’ could have been authored by Michael Jordan–just put something resembling ‘moderate entertainment’ on the court, and money paid for [even empty] seats is the only marker for achievement.
The only ‘leader’ we have had in the last three decades has been MAF, who publically proclaimed the university expected success, and our athletic goals were to be national championships. Furthermore, those goals were for all programs, including football, in which we had little previous success. When she declared those goals at Amato’s press conference, his ‘gulp’ was audible, as he seemed to realize his own standards would have to be elevated. THAT declaration of high expectations expanded our facilities and provided immediate football attendance; payoff in [immediate] recruiting; and expansion of facilities. The football team’s departure for new facilities provided another recent facility for the sole use of the basketball team.
Oblinger leads as a ghost or missing person, with no public pronuncement of expectations. Fowler, therefore, meets and exceeds expectations because there are none required or publically proclaimed. Fowler loves the limelight, and this way gets all the attention without having to field a team. He is ‘the sage grandfather’ providing encouragement through the news media of his ‘youngster’ coaches in TOB & Sid… who have no goals proclaimed or deliniated for them.
No goals, no dreams, no expectations, no leadership, and no accountability equals no change. Except to gradually get worse and hit bottom.
Are we there yet?
When our ‘maintenance maintainers’ get us completely to, or through, the bottom, who will be the source of the awards they increasingly receive?
Well they hired coaches for one…….We hired what an ex player from our last real glory team which was sadly 25yrs ago .
We all hoped sid would work out and bring us back. After 2 years it is very clear barring a miracle or a basketball brain transplant that is not going to happen. With our braindead AD sid will be in place as long as he wants and thats the way it is because fowler is not going anywhere and he thinks things are fine……..The only way I see change coming is if attendence really drops ,but that would happen because we have 1st rate fans with sadly a 4th rate program here.
^ But, what were the circumstances and performance-related issues that created the impetus for them to get rid of their former coaches?
How do those circumstances that created change at their institutions compare to the circumstances that didn’t create change at ours?
Our problem has been and continues to be an NC State cultural problem on where we stand against our peers. If you go back to the days of Everett Case and why he was hired (do you know? - it was b/c the adminstration felt that we couldn’t compete with UNC and Duke in football - how the world has changed now. Some would argue that we should concentrate on football b/c we can’t compete with UNC and Duke in basketball - another subject for another day)
Anyways, we don’t demand the best. Lets look - Les 7 years and Herb 10 years. 17 years - 6 NCAAs, 1 sweet 16. UNC fires Matt Doherty after 3. Oh yeah, they will blame the off the court stuff (b/c they are smart), but losing is what did it. Lets look MOC 7 years, Amato 7 years. UNC - Torbush 3 years, Bunting 4 or 5 years. We are slow to pull the trigger because we think that if you graduate a fair number of athletes, don’t get in the public eye for “bad stuff”, and sell enough tickets - THEN everything is okay!
UNC is the school that saids the Politically correct stuff, but behind the curtain votes the way that it takes for their agenda to work. NCSU is the school that screws up the publicly politically correct stuff, but in fear votes the PCS way out of fear - even if it is contrary to its on agenda. Could it be because we feel inferior?
NCSU does not have the vision or leadership to lead us to athletic success and honestly the problem is more than just the AD. Honetly, I do not see our situation changing for hte better any time soon. We are mired in a world of crap with no one to lead us out.
My prediction is TOB will do well enough to keep the $$$ pouring in which is all they want. Sid may or may not succeed but it is obvious he will have many years to do so.
Sadly I think no one at the AD or higher level cares if we win.
I wanted to add…
The only way any of this changes is if we get so bad the $$ stops flowing and the LTRs ensure that will not happen.
AD at NCSU must be the easiest job in the history of sports.
Did DOH make the final 4? I don’t think he did. He did win Coach of the Year.
2 things that UCLA and UNC did which NC State couldn’t do last time around (and I emphasize last time around) was that we couldn’t get our No 1 choice. In 2001, things might have been different. There’s a chance we could have had a Rick Barnes, John Calipari or a Bruce Pearl.
I will also say this, while Roy’s success hasn’t surprised me, Howland’s has. While he did great things at Pitt, there was nothing in his resume to indicate he’d go to the Final 4 3 straight years.
Part of the problem w/ not acting when you have substantial evidence is that you may get additional evidence which clouds the perspective, even though you aren’t meeting your ultimate goals. We saw this happen w/ MOC - who should have been fired after back to back 3-8 years. We saw this happen w/ Sendek, who would have been fired at most schools after his 5th year. We may see it happen in basketball again.
In football, we were fairly lucky 2 years ago. What would have happened if Chuck had managed to win his last 2 games vs. ECU and UNC? We’d probably be heading into this year w/out TOB or PJ - and really be facing a picky. As it was, Chuck’s final year was so awful, that the writing was written clearly enough on the wall for the “powers that be” to read it.
I believe only 3 of the 4 made the final 4. Doherty got AP coach of the year but did not reach the final 4. As for our situation, had Sendek not chosen to leave, he would still be here if it was up to Fowler. Looking back on Fowler’s coaching search or what ever it was, he actually offered Steve Lavin the job. The following year there were 53 div-1 jobs open and Lavin was considered for none of them. This speaks volumes concerning our ad’s “insight”. I hope Sid gets things turned around. There was alot more going on with our team this year than met the eye. Wall had an interesting comment over the weekend concerning Sid’s situation.
^?
How did they do it? A good question, and an simple answer.
It starts with a committment to atheletic achievement. They realize that on-the-field achievements often resonate throughout the community into off-the-field achievements. NC State clearly falls short here.
Then, they acted immediately when it became clear that the current regime had a limited ceiling. Note “acted”, not reacted. Their administration didn’t wait until a coach finished dead last in the conference, or lost to every in-state foe, before they made a change. Sadly, NC State falls short here as well.
Lastly, execution. They executed their plan flawlessly. They nabbed their first choice in a timely fashion, and consequently, seamlessly delivered the resources required to succeed going forward. Once again and definitively, the current NC State administration clearly falls short.
The reference to MAF is a great one. She came from Texas with an attitude that our university should be the best at everything it does. These sort of expectations from the top of the university set the tone for everyone else. When our university leaders accept mediocrity then it filters down to all levels and not just in athletics. The difference between our leaders and the leaders at UNC & UCLA is that they demand excellence and if it isn’t delivered then they will release you and move on to someone that will meet those expectations.
Too many of our teams hope to be at the top of the conference and therefore are satisfied when they are in the middle. Top programs expect to win the conference and are disappointed when they are 2nd. As Sean Connery’s character in The Rock said, “Losers try their best, winners go home and #$%# the prom queen.”
To relate this to the real world, how many companies will hold on to a sales manager, sales person, product manager, etc if they come in last in sales in their region/dept/etc. year after year?
Wall said, “It’s a lot of pressure to think that a coach might get fired if you didn’t go to school there.”
I’d only say to him 2 things - 1) That’s not your fault. 2) If you like Sid and think he’s going be a great coach, then, no worries right? Go to State.
I still can’t get over the fact that Lavin was considered. Was Coach Gut not available? To me, there was one key indicator that proved he was a horrible fit for the job:
He wasn’t coaching any more. Rick Nueheisel, Jim Fossell and others who have been fired, still coached. Nueheisel even coached QBs at a local high school. IMHO, this shows a love for the profession and a dedication to learn and improve. Lavin went to TV - and remains there. As far as I know, he doesn’t even coach Y ball.
Wall had an interesting comment over the weekend concerning Sid’s situation.
Please elaborate.
As for the question of the day, I think part of the problem with NC State’s administration is that the criteria isn’t established for what “success” is. If it’s bringing money into the program/department, CTC should grandfathered in and still be here. (I don’t want him still here, just making a point.) If it’s winning/losing, CTC failed and was appropriately canned. If it’s running a clean program with well-disciplined kids, CTC was on a tightrope and could have fallen either way.
Voldemort had a clean program with relatively well-disciplined players. After an abominable 5th year, he won, though not quite as much as we’d all have liked. And while he wasn’t inspiring, he did seem to have some of the big money guys in love with him. That spells out job security, in our version of the college game, anyway. Once he got past that 5th season and was still here, it was tough to justify firing him, based on the results. Though we fell short of what we aspire to, the sad reality is that the five year span before he left was the high point of the last 18 years, and that made it tough for the administration to kick him out the door.
well choppack1 so far as howlands success at pitt he had plenty especially if you knew anything about bball and seen his teams perform.(which is usually the case in any major schools athletic hire)
His teams played a system,played hard,he knew xs and os,turned a non basketball school into a respectible and competitive program . Not a coach where one has to hope he gets it,or needs a decade to grow into
his job
The most amazing thing I’ve seen Lee do to NC State in his entire tenure here is that this university is now subordinated in almost EVERY athletic sport to our main rival, UNC. It’s sad that as a student at NC State, I cannot name a sport with 100% confidence (except for maybe gymastics and softball) where we continually beat the Tar Heels on a regular basis. By no means should we be obliterating the Tar Heels in EVERY athletic sport, their prestige and popularity extends far beyond the reach of North Carolina and that is an advantage we just do not have. But to see us constantly play the loser role to UNC in over 90% of the athletic sports and in 3/3 larger revenue sports (Baseball in Basketball and Football), you have to wonder where Lee’s allegiances are. Not only does he allow our athletics program to deteriorate from the prestige it had in the 70s and 80s, he attempts to humiliate us by setting yearly matches with ECU in basketball of all sports (wtf?) where only ECU has anything to gain.
When I talk with older alumni, they tell me that back in the day, teams came against State AS the underdog. Suddenly the roles have switched and we are now the underdogs to our rivals down the street. Akin to the earlier article about “Because We Are NC State”, why should we be satisfied with reaching the NCAA’s, with upsetting a team, with having a winning record? The second we lower our expectations, we allow Fowler to dictate his views about how WE should feel about our own university. By no means am I saying fire every coach that doesn’t win or beats UNC because I know the time and experience factor are just as important. But at the same time, I’m not going to sit back and be content playing second fiddle to UNC in almost every sport imaginable, what’s the point in the rivalry then?
Let’s role reversal this a bit, you think if UNC had a team that continually lost to State, the coach wouldn’t feel some heat? Course not! UNC knows where their bread is buttered and they’re not going to let a university THEY SHOULD BEAT get the better of them. My question is, when did UNC suddenly become Goliath and we become David? Paging Lee Fowler…
Here’s my anology… Jed is to NCSU sports as Gaylord Focker’s parents are to him. Embrace his mediocraty, he can do no wrong.
Don’t know enough about UCLA athletics to comment, but what “building” a successful athletics department comes down to is being able to hire good coaches.
For that you need an AD who is confident in being able to evaluate good coaching talent, from lower levels and smart enough to know whent to fire an underperforming coach, so the university isn’t eating too many buyouts.
I don’t think Baddour has had to make too many coaching hires, since he’s been AD. Sylvia Hatchell has been there since the late 1980’s, the women’s soccer team has been dynastic for as long as the NCAA’s has had women’s soccer, and Roy Williams has always been believed to be Dean’s successor and he botched the hire initially.
What separates good programs from us the willingness to to hire an AD who has the drive to make the athletics department successful. We went from Turner, to Robinson (who actually did a lot to straighten out our finances, get the RBC Center built and get our academics in order), and Fowler.
NCSU has not had an AD like that in ages. I’m not sure where the blame lays, but neither big donors at the WPC or the BoT seems to care about winning all that much. The WPC can be a force for change, as it was in dismissing Amato and ponying up the money to get the attention of Barnes and Callipari, but they can’t carry the load alone. The WPC does not have the ability to push the BoT to make a change at AD. Why, I don’t know.
The problem with NCSU does not start with the AD. He is a product of the BoT’s and maybe the WPC’s complacent attitude.
For further frustration, I found this article about Maryland’s hire for their current AD Deborah Yow (and yes it’s Kay’s younger sister). Our desire to stick out with Turner, and now with Fowler, is what is hurting us and that starts at the top of our university structure.
^Doh definitely did not make the Final 4 … 3 seasons, 1 NCAA appearance (lost as a #1 seed to PENN STATE in Round 2; PSU coached by Raleigh native Jerry Dunn at that time, iirc), 1 NIT appearance, 1 8-20 season sandwiched inbetween …
I’ll try to find links to tie all that up …
The Doh timeline looks like this:
Factor 1 - Guthridge has some lean years post-Smith (a Final Four season after a ’so-so’ regular season notwithstanding) - recruiting is down relative to other Chapel Hill classes
Factor 2 - Doh - with limited head coaching experience - is tapped to be the next Hole coach b/c for “staying in the family” puroses (so they said)
Factor 3 - So far, you’ve got fan unrest due to the closure of the Gut years, recruiting “woes” (woes in their eyes - it’s all relative), and the hiring of a young, inexperienced, and UNPROVEN head coach … Doh comes in pistols blazing, has a very nice first recruiting class; Chapel Hill looks good on the court during the first 3/4 of the regular season … The Holes beat Duke, Chapel Hill achieves a #1 ranking in the polls, Doh is on his way to national coach of the year - everything is peaches and Hole fans can sleep easy on their angel pillows as all is right w/ the world again …
Then, the most unlikely of teams and coaches put the first bullet hole in Doh & company … Our friends down at Clemson, coached by Larry Shyatt at the time - were having a miserable season … but on an overcast Sunday afternoon in February that season (it was overcast where I was at, anyway:) Clemson drilled the Holes (pun intended) who came into the game ranked #1 in the nation … For the first time, you could see Doh and the Holes exposed some and sweating a bit … Fans race back into “What has our Athletics Dept. done? - This is CAROLINA!” mode after one game … This was the start of the unraveling … Chapel Hill clearly underperforms down the strecth of that season, but still manages to obtain a #1 seed in the NCAA tourny … enter Penn State and Jerry Dunn - who promptly swat Chapel Hill out of the tourny (that was a fun day)
Factor 4 - Doh enters a “prove it” season in only year 2 after the way the previous season ended … Contributing to this mindset are player losses (or defections - Forte, among others) in the offseason … The results were … not so good that year for Doh and the Holes … It started w/ a 30-point blowout exhibition blowout loss at home to Curtis Staples and the EA sports all-stars and ended w/ an 8-20 overall record … Calls for a change were loud and clear by this point … Also, don’t underestimate the media’s role when it comes to “traditional powers” … When programs such as Hole basketball and Notre Dame football struggle, you hear about it ALL THE TIME … The hypocrisy of the MSM (mainstream media) really shines through here - these programs “belong” on top in the MSM’s eyes so they should do whatever it takes to “stay on top” … whereas other programs should just be thankful to have a coach at all … but, anyway - that’s beside the point
Factor 5 - Doh has a great recruiting class coming in for his 3rd season, but the damage is mostly done by this point … The Holes clearly have talent and win some unexpected games that season (UConn for one) but make the NIT … Not enough for Hole fans, Hole “family” (Deano included), or Hole media … As others pointed out above, off the court issues for that team were prevalent in media stories … All the more valid reasoning to let a sinking ship go … Enter Royboy “I don’t give a SH*T about Carolina right now” Williams and the sun rises again! Rejoice! Rejoice! The world makes sense again!!!!
I know the above could use some links for relevant facts and I’ll do some searching … As for how they (being Chapel Hill or UCLA) did it and how it compares to Fowler-led NCSU - I’ll look for links and stuff
Chapel Hill’s Athletics Department and Chancellorship didn’t blame the fans, ask for more time, or BETTER FACILITIES … They recognized a mistake that was leading a storied program down the wrong path and tried (succeeded) to fix the mistake and recaptured their splintering fan base in one fell swoop … It’s the ONLY reason Dick Baddour is still the AD over there …
UCLA has a strikingly similar story, except that Lavin always did JUST ENOUGH at Tournament time to lead everyone to believe that in the next year or two he would start getting his great recruits to consistent Final Fours … He entered a final, make-or-break season that went much like Doh’s final season … Nail in coffin … Keep in mind that Lav was the coach immediately after the Scumbag (oops, Harrick is his name) fiasco which probably bought him at least 3 years right from the tip
In UCLA and Chapel Hill you have two institutions that made it CLEAR to everyone that a paticular season for a coach (Lav; Doh) was “make it or don’t” and then acted DECISIVELY once those seasons concluded
As for NCSU and Fowl-up, well we’ve been over that story ad nauseum - haven’t we?
While it all worked out for UNC, keeping Matt Doherty after that 8-20 season was absurd.
While Guthridge wasn’t Roy Williams on the coaching trail, he did go to two final fours in three years. And Doherty did take over a team that had enough talent to be an NCAA squad at the absolute very minimum.
Between his personal behavior and getting smacked around on the court, Baddour would have been 100 percent right to have let him go and to have held a press conference saying, “It was a terrible hire. It didn’t work out in any way and I’m sorry. I’ll do better on the next one.”
UNC almost lost to SUNY-Stonybrook that year. It was a miracle that they won that game…SUNY-Stonybrook was in it’s first year of NCAA competition and only had three scholarship players. That’s waaaay worse than us losing to ECU (a firable offense) or Campbell or Florida Atlantic the year they only won two games.
I believe that there’s a critical mass of things that have to happen for a coach to have success. Luck, talent, skill, brains…they all come together. And I don’t think you just pull them out of your *ss. Sendek didn’t work out the way we wanted it to. But he was close. Les Robinson…was never close. Matt Doherty was never close.
Someone’s going to have to point to some things I’m obviously overlooking to make me think Lowe is close.
simply put UCLA’s and UNC’s administrations both truly believe that their teams should be great…they believe it is a birthright…ours does not, ours is happy with 4th place in our conference and it does not take any chances what so ever in trying to win CHAMPIONSHIPS…
our administration is content with our results over the past decade…
^I’m sorry, I should’ve said Lavin’s last season went like Doh’s SECOND season … UCLA was awful in Lavin’s final year and that’s the season I meant to refer to
Doh didn’t get along well w/ the players and they let that be known. One positive out growth for UNC thou was fan support: the Wine and Cheese crowd was pushed aside for loud students; games are no longer a sedate event.
“Jed is to NCSU sports as Gaylord Focker’s parents are to him. Embrace his mediocraty, he can do no wrong.”
Pretty funny
… “You came in 12th place! Here is your 12th place Ribbon!”
Factor 5 - Doh has a great recruiting class coming in for his 3rd season, but the damage is mostly done by this point … The Holes clearly have talent and win some unexpected games that season (UConn for one) but make the NIT
What’s interesting about that year is Mays broke his foot in January (before they played NCSU) and it was only after they lost their inside presence they really had trouble. With Mays healthy all year, they could’ve made it back to the NCAA’s.
The powers that be at Chapell Hill weren’t going to let Doherty off the hook and give him an excuse, like an injury to a key player, for not performing.
I honestly think if it had been NCSU, all we’d have heard is how a key injury kept us from winning and the coach was not to blame.
I think something that needs to be considered (if it hasn’t sufficiently) is just a difference in cultures between schools. No one in the Wolfpack Club (WPC) looks at the documented and obvious performance of the teams as a whole, and football and basketball in particular, with any sort of satisfaction or accomplishment. I don’t know for sure, i am only imagining. Over the last 25 years, nothing of note has really been accomplished and more often the performances have been dismal. So why are there no shakeups?
It can ONLY be, i think, cultural. It seems now there is a disconnect between what NCSU administrators expect and what an NCSU fan expects. Tom O’Brien fell into our laps, he was a total accident by dent of a sour relationship with an Administration in a cold place (BC) and the desire to move/retire to a relatively warm place (somewhere within easy driving distance of his vacation home in South Carolina). It was clearly not because Administrators in NCSU demanded not only that the then current coach (Amato) produce or there would be consequences but, more importantly, would they have been able/eager/ready to go and hire a coach with even the modicum of gravitas that TOB possessed. My guess is: No. They would have hired a mid-major guy or someone who was proven like Paul Johnson but did not have the pedigree of someone like Butch Davis.
^Good point, Billy … If Mays doesn’t break his foot and Chapel Hill makes the NCAA tourny I wonder if anything would’ve been different
I remember when Mays broke his foot … Chapel Hill had a good start to the season but were playing Iona (of Jimmy V fame) in a preseason tourny at Madison Square Garden … Iona was playing well, Mays goes down, Iona pulls away for the win … Something else interesting, I believe Iona was coached by Jeff Ruland at the time and he openly applied for our job the other year just before leading Iona to one of their worst seasons ever … weird, wacky stuff
I always felt Doh was let-go not so much because he was bad, he wasn’t that bad, but that Ol’Roy was who the ‘Holes wanted anyway to replace Dean. Also, Guthridge was more of a stop-gap, fill in the ‘Holes (pun intended) hire…i think its misleading to believe that UNC is so “competetive” that “they had 4 coaches in 7 years.” If that’s the case, their football coach hiring decisions must be equally questioned (and they were by ‘Hole fans) for how long they kept around people like Torbush and what’s-his-face, the last one.
“what’s-his-face, the last one.”
^BTB … Bunting the Belly! … or Bunting the Beast
Don’t underestimate how the media helped bring down Doh. Dave Glenn chose to publish the stories about Doh in order to make the 3 year termination more justified. Heck, we didn’t in fire HWSBN and we got roasted over the coals.
I don’t have time to read all of the posts, but all of this stuff about graduating players, the high road, and the integrity of the program, and blah, blah, blah, is absolute nonsense. NC State is no better, or no worse than, the majority of major college athletics in that aspect. It’s all a big front that’s set up to hide the truth with regards to their inability to actually maintain a program that is worthy of it’s hertitage, along with all of the money that is wasted to “promote” and perpetuate losing athletics across the board.
You folks just keep on believing that NCSU is somehow above everyone else in that regard, it’s working perfectly for the administrators.
if it was us and doh was coaching he would still be here,and you all would say well he bleeds this and that and I know doh wants to win,its the ADs fault,the stars are not in proper order yet in the sky,oh lets give him a chance to “GROW” into the job.
But in sucessfull or even mediocore programs it is a bottom line thing based on results,what is shown on the floor and perhaps even a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel.Perhaps other places also like to see some accountability instead of Blaming your 19 to 22 y/o players always.
And we are not by any means mediocore based on these last 2 seasons!
love the vintage ncsu apparel ad,shoot all we have is vintage and memories
D’oh wasn’t so bad?
By what measure?
noah: SUNY-Stonybrook or Binghampton?
Our history since Valvano appears schizophrenic. The administration back then acted too quickly to rid the University of a proven coach. Then, we stuck with the next two coaches far too long. Les should have been, at most, a one or two year transition guy. H*** S***** should have been gone after his fifth season. Then the University hired an alum with questionable credentials rather than looking for and choosing the best mid-major candidate who wanted the job. If history has taught us anything, and if Lowe does right the ship, Fowler will keep him on too long.
I do not understand why NCSU treats the basketball program as if our University is just one of the many struggling for basketball recognition. We have an amazing tradition and heritage in our b-ball program. We not only deserve better, but we deserve the best.
I cannot see our buddies in blue treating their programs the same way. The Doherty example is the most obvious one. “This isn’t going to work. Thanks, but you’ve got to go, and we’ve got to win championships.”
“and if Lowe does NOT right the ship” - sorry.
“noah: SUNY-Stonybrook or Binghampton?”
Maybe it was Binghampton. Whichever it was, they had just started a varsity squad that year. They shouldn’t have been hanging around the JV squad from NC Central, let alone an ACC squad.
Speaking of decisiveness and fast action at UNC, they were extremely close to severing ties with Mack Brown after just two years as well.
After they lost to Navy on Homecoming weekend in 1989, Brown thought he was gone for good. He said that he went back to his car and just cried like a little baby. After that year (concluding with the 41-0 debacle against Dook), Brown was apparently told by the AD (swofford?) that he HAD to produce the next year.
They went 6-5 and they tied national champs Georgia Tech and Brown saved his job.
The lesson I would take away from that is that a good AD knows when it’s time for patience and when it’s time to cut your losses. I don’t think you can have some hard, fast rule on how long a guy gets before you fire him. Circumstances and good judgement have to be your guide, not some arbitrary number.
My personal belief is that Fowler is perfectly aware of his shortcomings and knows that he’s not very good at seperating the wheat from the chaffe in the hiring process. Everytime he has to make a hire or a fire, it exposes this weakness…so he keeps his exposure to a minimum.
I must disagree with Howler—ncsu does not deserve success–you make your success.
“I do not understand why NCSU treats the basketball program as if our University is just one of the many struggling for basketball recognition. We have an amazing tradition and heritage in our b-ball program. We not only deserve better, but we deserve the best.”
Deserves got nothing to do w/ it. NC State’s is one of only a handful of schools that have won national championships w/ 2 different coaches. However, NC State hasn’t had a sustained era of excellence for anyone 50 or younger. IMHO, this is our biggest problem. The only reason Duke has entered the elite is because of Coach K. UNC became great w/ Dean Smith. They really struck gold when one of his proteges w/ extensive ties to the university, appears to be just as good, if not better than Deano.
NC State desperately needs this coach in hoops.
“SFN: We’ll add a third criteria of the current need - intelligence. I don’t mean the raw sense of the word. But, more of a real-world intelligence that has an innate ability to understand the realities of our situations and how those realities compare to other universities.”
Between 1986 & 1992 we lost three of the brightest people imaginable using the above definition of intelligence. Willis Casey, Jim Valvano and Dick Sheridan were just exceptional individuals that we have never come close to replacing.
Casey hired Sloan, Valvano, Sheridan & Holtz for the revenue sports. Among others, he hired Easterling, Esposito, Yow, Guzzo & Geiger on the non-revenue side. Maybe of even more importance is the fact that he hired Kiffin and Reed (Poulton actually hired Reed) and gave each 3 years to establish a program. Reed was a no-brainer after 3 straight 3 - 8 records but Kiffin actually had 2 winning seasons out of 3 including the last one but was let go because Casey was convinced we would not have great success with him. In both cases, neither coach was allowed to twist in the wind of uncertainty for very long.
I can promise you that Willis Casey would not have fired Herb after his fifth season - he would have fired him after his 3rd or 4th year.
Our history since Valvano appears schizophrenic.
No it is very predictable. As long as no one is screwing up off the field, the Admin. leaves them alone. This starts with the BoT, AD and goes all the way down to the coaches and towel boys. Our problem is the serious gap between fans expectations and what the Administration is willing to deliver.
I think the gap between the Admin and the fans started with Turner. Turner was awful. Everyone hated him, when I was at NCSU. The Admin kept spinning press releases about how great Turner was. He gets canned from Vandy and I’m not sure about his fate at UofW, but the fans hate him.
Unless the fans revolt and stop attending games. Even if you can’t get out of your LTR’s and limit contributions, there’s nothing that will force the Administration’s hand, unless fans stand up and make themselves heard. Boycott a game at CF this year. No one shows up. Boycott a game at the RBC Center. I’m not talking about paltry attendance numbers, but for one game no one goes, just to send a message.
“Someone’s going to have to point to some things I’m obviously overlooking to make me think Lowe is close.”
when he’s had a decent PG he’s been fine. His system requires a good PG.
Here is my wild hair thought.. both UCLA and UNX benefit from vast amounts of marketing!! What I mean is.. announcers will always throw praise to a UCLA and UNX whether is deserved or not. Just like Dickie V is the one may promoter for Duke, the media seems to have a love fest with these schools b/c of their past. As a viewer, you are told you are to hold these schools in awe b/c of their long history of success. This holds a lot of sway with the kids coming out of high school. Sorry if this falls in the “vast right wing conspiracy” type idea.
NC State had a good year and even on the anniversary its promoted more as a “fluke” than an accomplishment. (see yahoo sports) Its like a back handed slap to say “they didn’t really deserve it and it won’t happen again”.
As for coaching.. UNX benefits from having one VERY long tenured coach who had many assistant offspring who can be pulled back into the flock. Roy is the best of the flock and a darn good coach. The men in between were just place holders til Roy came over from Kansas.
Bottom line: we will always face an uphill battle with the media and when the opportunity to knock the wobbling giant came along, we failed to act. We decided to wobble with them as well. It will be INCREDIBLY important to act fast when Duke starts to wobble as they are starting too!! BUT don’t expect a full fall either, State must be willing to step into the gap if Duke falls off to show we are UNX’s rival!!
“I can promise you that Willis Casey would not have fired Herb after his fifth season - he would have fired him after his 3rd or 4th year.”
Correct!
[lee fowler]Intelligence is a highly over rated attribute [/lee fowler]
Noah, the “D’oh wasn’t so bad” comment was based on he didn’t go 0-30 and that the players Roy Williwams won the National Championship with were largely players D’oh recruited. I really think he would have righted the ship. But once Roy became available it was a no-brainer for the tarhole brain (fart) trust.
I can’t give Doherty too much credit for recruiting the guys that won the title. You or I could recruit to Carolina. Just about every kid out there wants to play there because they almost always win. If they had kept Doherty another year, kids would have started leaving and his recruiting would have tailed off, because the players openly hated the guy.
“noah: SUNY-Stonybrook or Binghampton?”
It was Binghamton … I remember watching the game w/ some Hole friends … Binghamton should’ve won
Not too long later we had the GT vs. Chapel Hill game on FSN South … Phil Ford was one of the analysts and he delivered his famous (or infamous) “We win! We win!!!” line at the end of that game
Rochester (I’m in Rochester too, Brighton area), i was gonna add that exact comment but StateFansNation’s posters are too astute, i’d figure somebody would caveat my comment.
“He (Turner) gets canned from Vandy and I’m not sure about his fate at UofW, but the fans hate him”
Turner is out at UW … They had put a definite last date on his tenure and I believe it has already passed
Rochester has it right, I can’t give ANY credit to Doh for what he recruited. Here’s how recruiting goes for Carolina.
Kid A has been recruited heavily by NC State, Clemson, VT and other ACC schools as well as some BE/B10/whatever. Kid A is a 5* PG with an unlimited ceiling. Carolina has not recruited this kid due to already having 3-4 4*/5* PG’s on their roster, Duke won’t recruit the kid because he doesn’t have rich parents. Kid A is starting his senior year and is leaning toward NC State in 2009.
Lawson drops out for the NBA draft, QT graduates, Fraser is told that he won’t be able to play BB again due to failed rehabilitation and the freshman PG that Roy has coming in this year is not progressing as expected.
Roy stops by Kid A’s house. “Hey, wanna play for carolina? You’ll be on a team full of talent and all you have to do is pass the ball to Tyler and he’ll travel his way to your assist.”
Kid A signs LOI for Carolina the next day.
DOH.
About our friend Todd Turner - this article says his “resignation” was effective on Jan. 31 of this year
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/huskies/343088_husk12.html
“Turner, 56, did not attend Emmert’s news conference but met later with media members. He said the decision to resign was mutual, but disagreed strongly with Emmert’s assessment that he was not the right fit for the athletic department.”
Really Todd? Oh, you disagree, do you? … I am shocked … You’re “skillsets” for holding an AD job were superb … ahem … Good luck Todd, but get out of the AD business
Well, pretty much unx-xh IS the ACC and we are pretty much their bytch(see women’s sports, basketball, baseball)!
We pretty much sux and hire the WRONG people, then give them extensions when they don’t preform.
Rock & Ismael (did I mention I work for Muslims?) ‘The Antlers’ is pretty much the best place to eat in Ithaca however my son has decided to pla football elsewhere.
It wasn’t wins with Doh. If he had stuck around for another year the heels might have fielded a team in 2004 that made the 2002 team look like 1982.
c92 - don’t mistake yourself.If DOH had won ACC and/or NCAA championships, I doubt he goes anywhere.
Matt Doherty is crazier than a ****-house rat. But it was the wins. Had he won 25 games and gone to the Final Four like Gut, they would have overlooked the crazy part.
One of the things I can remember about Doh was back in high school my tar heel fan friends were very depressed during basketball season.
2 depressing seasons, cry me a f-ing river.