Duke Basketball Report had to shut down their message board after today’s loss against West Virginia. I am not sure if you guys ever had the misfortune of reading “Carolina Blue” back in the 80’s and 90’s, but DBR’s propaganda would make John Kilgo blush. We can’t wait read their post game recap from the West Virginia game. Get ready for Coach Kool Aid.
We’re turning the board off for a bit. Some of you are out of control.
We will be back.
There is no joy in Mudville, mighty K has struck out!
What is that then, one tournament win for every five McDonald’s All-Americans?
They looked worn out and the shots weren’t falling. They will be tough again next season. Didn’t have the feel of a Final 4 team even back in January. Now if I can say the same thing about the holes…
If only they’d had more help from the refs …
Duke will probably get John Reik next year, and then they will be unstoppable again.
My only disappointment was not seeing any Dookies actually cry on camera. That’s something we can usually count on seeing.
Huggy Bear is one hell of a coach. They certainly came out of the Beilein situation a winner.
K really needs to re-examine things over there. Duke was damn good for the early season and half of the ACC season, but the wheels just fell off. Singler and Nelson just shut down. They rely so hevily on the three, when your legs are shot its over. They will be very good again next season but no way do I see them as a Final Four caliber team anymore. Those days are long gone.
Two things this tournament showed
1) Having Duke (and UNC) pampered by the refs does them no favors. Duke was not used to someone being physical with them and it showed
2) You cannot build your team around three point shots with no alternatives (see Sendek, Herb). You need a threat down low. Duke was always best when they had a good big man to take pressure off the three.
1. Talent helps, too.
2. agree
Late in the Belmont game I turned to a Dookie friend and said “If Duke loses, we’re immediately going to godaddy.com and buying the rights to ‘FireCoachK.com’” And he said — I kid you not — “Maybe the game has passed him by.”
Cleanup on Aisle 5! We have a reality spill.
Someone had made a post in the Saturday thread about why Duke flops so much and struggles now … I wanted to repost my response in this thread since it seems to be relevant to the discussion … I apologize for the length … If irrelevant / too long please ax
***
Respectfully disagree w/ your theory on why Duke flops so much this season and last (unathletic white boys who can’t win otherwise)
K has had plenty of athletes in the past, and they have all clearly been taught the art of the flop … Battier was by far the worst offender and I would consider him a fairly good athlete … Also, Jason Williams did it a ton as well - and before his motorcycle accident he was definitely a good athlete … It has always happened … Lance Thomas does today … Nolan Smith … etc.
Try to catch one of their old games on Espn Classic and you’ll see the same tactics that you see today … you’ll just notice that they get away w/ it so much more b/c refs were even more lazy and unwise to “Duke tactics” than today if you can believe that … The ACC truly loves Duke, you can see through the refs that the ACC has put their seal of approval on Duke’s style of play as the #1 way to play the game … Too bad it doesn’t translate to tournament time anymore b/c it’s a bullsh*t style of play
I think if you play at Duke and see significant minutes your ass is EXPECTED to hit the floor a certain number of times … Just a theory, but I think we can assume this from years of watching them play … The flop / taking charges has to be their #1 defensive principle … It must be … And that only comes from the man in charge …
It is ruining ACC basketball … While other leagues are getting more and more physical, the ACC is stuck trying to enforce it’s own style of play that favors finesse teams like Dooook and Chapel Hill … Those days are long over … Duke gets to the tournament and loses to teams like Michigan State or Pitt every year now …
I have no problem with physical play, but it does need to be cleaned up some across the nation … The Big Ten is abhorable with it’s nightly football contests masquerading as basketball games and the Big East has always been too rough (6 fouls, really?) … That said, the ACC needs to catch up
The ACC’s answer to rough play is to call too many charges … How much f*ckin sense does that make? The ACC’s answer should be to enforce the rules on off the ball clutching, grabbing, holding, and wrestling and ask other leagues to do the same …
But therein lies the catch-22 of ACC/Dook basketball … They can’t call all that off the ball clutching and grabbing b/c that would mean every single Doook player would foul out in the first half … So now you have no tough prescence for inside play and come tournament time you won’t get away w/ all that perimeter grabbing and holding … SMART!
Good job Doook and ACC office … way to singlehandedly ruin ACC basketball and ensure ALL of our teams are now at a deficit come Tournament time … F*ckers … Good job Swofford and Clougherty … Dumb Sh*ts
As to turning off the bulletin board entirely - what a cowardly act. SFN has always exercised firm restraint when we spin out of control (as we are occasionally want to do). A sharp rejoinder or, at worst, shutting down a specific thread’s comment is surely proficient. Total lock out is nuclear.
Man I would love to read how bad it had gotten.
Question: The media’s spin is K’s flu… legit factor or just BS.
Same pattern since Reddick arrived- kick ass until the legs go late in the season, and end up crying on tv. K definitely has a coaching style problem that hurts them in the Dance.
And I have to defend UNC-sorry- in this forum. UNC is not at all comparable to Duke in terms of flopping and wussy play. Besides that, at least UNC is an actual North Carolina university as opposed to a southern branch of the New Jersey school system.
Long story short, Duke sucks. I hate taking pleasure in others’ pain- unless the others are Duke. Very satisfying indeed.
There was a good article on either SI or ESPN a few weeks ago regarding Duke’s recent history or late-season melt downs and how (as i recall) the writer was pointing out that their schedule was not as hard as it was in years past and the approach now seemed to be to get as many wins as possible rather than building (and absorbing) losses to prep. for tournament play. Also, Tudor’s N&O artilce this morning was good.
Who cares ,we have our own problems and plenty of them and all this does is turn attention away from that.
Suggestion: Sid fire Towe and bring in Vlade Divac to teach flopping? Would help for 2 ACC wins/yr I think.
^If there was ever guy who should’ve played for Duke it was Vlade (Floppy) Divac … very nice
Stunning, really, that with a McDonald’s All-American the caliber of Lance Thomas that they could ever lose.
“If only they’d had more help from the refs …”
It’s hard to get help from the refs when you step over the half court line and pop a 3. Their entire team just had a severe brain freeze. If they had kept driving and drawing fouls, WVU would have fouled out and Duke would have stayed in the game points-wise as well. That was just unsmart play for a long stretch. I sure am not complaining though since I picked them to lose to WVU in my bracked. Oh yeah, and I hate Duke.
Living in the former Soviet Union, I can certainly appreciate the need to control the flow of information. People can be pretty strongly affected when exposed to reality.
Divas was the friggin Issac Newton of flopping.
The ACC has always been considered a ‘finesse’ league and I always liked that because to me it meant ’skill’ league. The physical, defensive style that slows a game down is usually the product of an ego-tastic, control freak coach who doesn’t want his players making decisions. It’s boring and I don’t want the ACC to go in that direction. 53-49 every night? I’ll pass.
Duke needs a back to the basket big man who can score.
Singler is a forward and does not play that way, and Zubek should transfer here where he would fit in.
But, but but…I thought that all Duke’s fans were classy individuals who held the values of good sportsmanship in the highest esteem?
Surely THEY, the paradigm of goodness and light in college hoops, would never have a message board meltdown!
Your turds stink too, Dukies. The next step is to stop acting like they don’t.
I agree, PackNSack … I wish college basketball would emphasize skilled play as opposed to Big 10 wrestling/football contests
But I still think the flop is ruining the ACC …
Speaking of physical play, watch how Villanova gets away w/ absolute murder under the baskets today … every time I’ve seen them play they are all over other teams under the basket … I guess you can’t call all of it
Go Saints!
The DBR quotes are interesting:
“Folks, if you think DBR is the right place to come vent your frustrations and bash on the team or on the coaching staff for how the season went and/or ended, then you are thinking wrong.”
The owners of this site have made it clear that bashing the team/coaches is not allowed - that if you’re going to criticize, it needs to be done constructively.
The mods are very busy right now deleting lots of posts and handing out infractions for folks that are obviously upset about the end of the season - understandably so - but that are expressing themselves via posts at a terribly in appropriate time or in terribly inappropriate ways.”
Is the CIA running that Blog? The next thing I would expect would be for the Duke Brownshirts to raid the dorms and beat up bloggers to deliver their infractions. “Do you haff relatives in Chermany Mr. Jones” The dukies show their colors on this one.
Siena not looking the greatest right now, but only down by 10 at the break after playing really sh*tty … There is some hope
DBR needs scraps from the Dookie staff and they have to stay in their good graces to keep getting those scraps — as a business decision, maybe they are cutting off their noses despite their face if they alienate the posters who are the life-blood of their traffic, I dunno, but the Dook staff insulates K in a lot of ways and if DBR wants to keep whatever contact they get over there, they’ve got to go the Pravda route.
I suspect they were getting posts much like I saw at The Devils Den after the near miss with Belmont … none too flattering and a lot of questioning of K’s recruiting strategies and the assistants (esp. Wojo and Collins) as lackey yes-men. Basically, stuff a lot of us have been saying for 4-5 years.
I disagree about the ACC being a finesse league. Those days ended in the early 90s (coinciding by many accounts with an unbelievable run of success in the NCAA Tournament for the ACC).
I think the ACC is unbelievably physical, there is just a nearly overwhelming assumption in favor of the defense on the block/charge call that has really warped the game in conference, IMO. It has gotten to the point that you simply cannot drive all the way to the basket, which gives defenses a huge advantage and is utterly unfair to offenses.
I think all ACC Teams are hurt right now by the in-league versus general block/charge treatment … in the tournament, a lot of what is “defense” in the ACC (drawing a charge under the basket on a drive) is not rewarded on the block/charge call and is points and/or foul on the defense much more often.
But I also think Dook has had dead-leg syndrome for four consecutive NCAA tournaments now and they need to figure out how to deal with that.
Peripherally watching the tournament over the last few days, I’ve observed how guard-dominant these teams are. And just the way many of the teams have several guys that “put it in on the floor” and go straight to the basketball. Amazing, it’s like instant offense. So I agree that the root of much of our problems is at the guard spot, and that cannot be understated, regardless of what internal politics or cascading epic fail that occurred in the last half of the season. So I suppose I understand better the comments, “college basketball is a guard’s game”. We were not as bad as we played, we are more talented than we showed, but we had zero guys with that capability to drive and score, drive and dish after attracting defense, etc. The Degand loss, was much more catastrophic than I originally appreciated it as, as we went from mediocre to bad/very green in the most important position on the floor. Also, entering the 2008-09 season, I think the rehabilitation of Degand and Johnson will have significant importance. I.e. will they both have the same explosiveness as before the injury? If so, well, watch out, given they have a reasonable handle on the ball. If JJ leaves, oh boy, what could have been.
replace Johnson with Johnny Thomas.
Just wanted to add that a patented Dookie specialty, drawing phantom fouls on three point jump shooters by flailing on the shot and falling to the ground if a guy is within 6 feet of them on the follow-through, does not have the same high success rate out-of-conference as it does in conference and that has hurt them.
Even in their most dominant stretch from ‘99 to ‘04, Coach K too often tried to rely on forcing a foul call to generate his offense in tight spots and it has cost them in the NCAA Tournament where the refs generally swallow their whistles at the end of games. They like to develop a top notch free throw shooter and get him as much offense on forced fouls (driving into some one, forcing a shot through the arms of defense, etc.) as possible, but that is putting their fate somewhat in a third party’s hands and it has burned them a number of times.
In search of his legacy, Coach K has turned away from recruiting anyone with even a hint of a questionable background, a la Magette, or who will go the NBA route too early, a la lots of others…
…the consequence, then, is what we see on his team now, a bunch of white kids and black kids from financially secure backgrounds.
Probably not the stuff of NCAA dominance.
westwolf: thanks for illuminating that. with the prominence of the program, I was wondering why they weren’t recruiting more players with the athleticism of Henderson, for example. Or a few inside players like Sheldon Williams. It’s not like they have to even try to get them. I suppose K doesn’t want Duke to become the Indiana Pacers of college basketball, to your point.
Jinx update - I’m wearing my San Diego sweatshirt. Thus, USD getting woodshedded by Western Kentucky. This is getting creepy.
Is the CIA running that Blog?
No but they are not going to let idiots and children ruin their message board. We often do the same to comments around here.
Choose your poison - humiliation for the ACC (no Sweet Sixteen teams) or a UNC win. I will gladly root for the former, but there’s definitely a downside.
Butler/Tennessee is entertaining, but all other games today have been unwatchable garbage.
wufpup76 ,
I’ll check out some old-school duke games, I have only had the displeasure to really watch Duke for the past 5 years. If thats the case, then K needs to adjust his coaching if he wants another ring.
The difference in media comments between the ACC having no one in the S-16 versus only having UNC are probably pretty small.
It’s now impossible for any ACC team to play above their seeding. Miami played to seed, Clemson 1 rung below, Duke 2 rungs below. UNC has to make the Final Four to play to seed.
What an incredible near-comeback by Miami. Kudos to Frank Haith for acquitting himself well.
What in the hell has happened to our conference? Embarassing quite frankly.
Go Davidson! Go Red!
Very encouraging write up about Julius Mays today on packpride. Sounds like he has a lot of poise as a PG and physical ability
Is Curry Herb Sendek’s kid? He looks like Herb.
Ain’t no way in the world Tennessee is beating UNC. Might as well pull for Butler.
Wow, have these crap games ever tightened up.
JP Prince turns it over. Thank you JP for not coming here.
At least the Hole fans are having the decency to make lots of noise for the Wildcats. Beasley is really good, but I’m not sure there’s a better college player than Curry.
A Davidson win guarantees a UNC champion.
Well…Tennessee is actually going to pull it out. Maybe they can find their A-game by next week.
Actually…I guess UNC would play Washington State next…not Tennessee.
Ballgame. Davidson is going to win!
Washington State, TN and Louisville all have the ability to knock out UNC. Washington state plays a special type of ugly basketball that will frustrate UNC.
Davidson is about to represent in the sweet 16 though.
Way to go, Davidson.
I actually picked WSU to beat UNC. Wishful thinking, I’m sure.
Wazzu could beat the Holes. They defend like mad, and ACC refs won’t work the game.
Stephon Curry is a badass.
Western Kentucky and Davidson in the Sweet Sixteen. I love it. Love to see one or both in the Elite Eight.
Curry is a badass. I think they can take out Wisconsin… but… Kansas is a big stretch and would require Curry to have another 40 point game. Of course, I also thought that Georgetown would stomp them with size, but Curry just proves me wrong. That tough non conference schedule is helping them out a lot.
Alright Davidson! yeah!!!!
Turned out to be some great games today after all of them were double digits like you said BJD …
“The difference in media comments between the ACC having no one in the S-16 versus only having UNC are probably pretty small.”
I agree w/ this sentiment, and would welcome the trashing of the ACC for this one year should the Holes lose today … I find it hard to pull for Arkansas, though … ughhh
Um, go Miss State against Memphis?
Western Kentucky and Davidson into the Sweet 16 … awesome
We beat TWO Sweet 16 teams…Oh, what might have been if we focused on getting better each week…
But, then again, State should only expect to go to the Sweet 16 every 10 years or so, unlike powerhouse WVU who gets to go 3 out of the last 4 or so…
Curry is going to be a very wealthy man. Congrats to the Cats! Un-real…
Davidson can most certainly beat Wisconsin. And I think Nova will give Kansas all it can handle.
LMAO - my wife was flicking on the non-sports TV, saw the red team on the NC State floor and she yelled to me, “Hey! State’s winning!” heh.
What a great game, played with heart, great shooting under pressure, and coaching. Too bad it wasn’t our team in red doing it. Well done Davidson. Playing the tough schedule is really paying off. Are you watching LF?
Re; Miss State - that team drove me nuts the other day, mainly because they played like State did so many times this year… the slow walk up no matter what the situation. I can’t stand that. Show some urgency. Just because you bring the ball up the floor in a hurry doesn’t mean you have to shoot right away. Plenty of teams push the ball up, then assess. If the D gives you something right away, take it. Otherwise - run your offense. Is that so hard?
DavidsonFansNation anyone? =P
Memphis looks like us against a zone when our 3’s weren’t falling… just pitiful.
YES-TRIP-MAKE IT SO.
DURING MY SONS FOOTBALL RECUITING, WE LOOKED AT DAVIDISON-A VERY GOOD SCHOOL-GREAT ACADEMICS AND THEY REALLY CARE FOR THEIR STUDENTS.
Wow, Arkanasas. Thanks so much for showing up. Much appreciated.
Doesn’t look like Evil is going to have too much trouble today … about the only good thing to say is that there is plenty of time left!
You can make a very good argument that Davidson is the best school in North Carolina.
Since my bracket picks are “toast” now, let’s put up the “RED and WHITE” on the banner and pull for Davidson!!
Arkansas is making us look good. So, you’re telling me that a team that should have beaten the Heels last Saturday doesn’t deserve to be on this court right now??
Regarding Duke - I think that in order to keep on playing the style that Coach K insists on playing - overplaying man to man, pressuring the guards and 3 man, speading out the floor on offense - they need more speed AND better depth. These guys are getting the possible results playing this style w/ the current personnel. It also killed them that Nelson virtually disappeared in the ACC and NCAA tourney.
Even if they did have a good big man this year, you still had Paulus or Scheyer overplaying guards who could easily blow by them and break down a defense.
As another posted stated, Coach K decided to go after kids w/ a better petigree - and as we’ve seen before, when you do, you seem to sacrifice team speed.
Pedigree? Meaning dogs??
That second link at the top of the page is hilarious. I am grateful we don’t have to read that kind of crap on this site. Does Coach K write the articles himself? Nevermind, if he did they would have to edit out too many curse words. Favorite excuse…I mean quote:
“A good part of the team, from Coach K down to the bench, was afflicted with the flu”
And I thought only the Tar Heels shared the same hotel room the night before games.
For those keeping score at home, Stephen Curry is the epitome of the “heat it up” shooter that we need to get in our stable to get to the next level. We haven’t had anyone remotely close to that since CC Harrison, and that is one big reason (of many) that we have struggled forever now grinding out games and generally not blowing anyone out.
I may be biased toward “shooting guards” but having a consistent bomber (not Princeton set shooters) who people have to fear opens up so many things for everyone else.
I will get to see two pretty good games at Reliant on Friday with my wife’s Longhorns against Stanford and Memphis against Michigan State. The tough part will be finding a fourth ticket for Sunday if Texas is still playing.
The observations above about the importance of guard play in college basketball are dead on. We have got to find/develop some guys who can beat people off the dribble and create scoring opportunities for the rest of the team.
The ACL tear for the kid from UConn looked exactly like the Degand injury on the replay. It made me hurt all over again.
I still remember when Davidson was good and Terry Holland was their coach. We used to go to Charlotte and watch them play State at the Old Old Old Charlotte Coliseum.
^^^You can make a very good argument that Davidson is the best school in North Carolina.
Concur, Noah. I heard somewhere that 25% of their students play varsity sports, too. I’ve heard great things about Davidson. Let’s adopt them. If not Davidson, I’m going to root for Villanova, so let’s just change it to WildcatFansNation and we can root for both/either…
I may be biased toward “shooting guards”
Another nice benefit of getting one is that their pro-potential is very low unless they also have a great handle. Thus if you can get a big shooter at the 2, then you’re likely to keep him for four years.
Good point, VaWolf82. As we know the opposite is true for PF/C’s. I think Mays is shaping up to be a kid that will contribute right away, possibly as a scoring PG/shooting guard. Johnny Thomas/C.J. Williams both look to be the type of guys that will be able to take opponents off the dribble.
Duke can get all the big men they want next year. Until they get a point guard, they will continue to struggle. Paulus SUCKS. He is slow and when the chips are down, he gets outplayed 99% of the time. He gets away with a lot because of the name on his jersey, but his lack of talent really shows when it matters the most. Hell, those kids from Belmont were flying by him like he was glued to the floor.
^ Which is exactly what we need next year. Granted, we do not have the greatest point guard, but I think the greater weakness was at the 2 spot.
If Wall can provide help at either position, that would improve things a lot. A motivated Costner can work at the 4, and a motivated McCauley could be serviceable at the 5. Fells is best-suited to be a 3. I’m unsure about Horner’s Statue, but there are other big men who could get minutes. Degand might be able to come back some in the spring, though I expect he’ll be ineffective next year. Also, you have to factor in 1-2 ACL tears a year since this is State.
I think State could improve drastically next year even if Hickson’s gone. That said, it will require some ifs. If the ifs don’t happen, 4-12 again is likely and I think the clown car will be searching again. (I can’t see Sid not resigning after that)
^^^You’re banking on Wall coming to STATE? I don’t know what everyone else has been seeing, but if I were a top-notch recruit…State would be one of the last places I’d be looking. Last year could have been scratched as a mulligan, thanks to the late-season run. This year, however, did NOTHING to help our recruiting. Couple that with our completely incompetent AD, and you’ve got a negative recruiting Mecca. A recruiting hell, if you will.
I thought Wall was already committed
There are advantages to going to State over somewhere like a UNC. You get more hype for beating the man then being the man. You get more opportunities here as well. Look at Hickson. How many mpg would be get at UNC?
Heard a radio exchange that went something like this…
When Duke recruits someone, they *become* 5-star All Americans…UNC-CH is actually recruiting 5-star All Americans.
Has UNX won the NCAAT yet?The media is all ready crown them after todays butt kicking of Ark.I think UCLA and Kansas will have something to say about.ALL I CAN SAY IS LETS GO DAVIDISON-LETS GO!
So Duke had to shut down their Blog-GETTING THEIR ASSES KICK BY HICK U.PRETTY MUCH DID THAT I THINK.
I got a last minute ticket to the games today. Curry is incredible. Richards is the point guard that State needs. Georgetown did a good job on Curry for 25-30 minutes, but he was patient, and while he was cold, Richards kept them in the game. When Curry got hot, he was unstoppable. It was amazing to watch. The UNX fans got behind the Wildcats, and the game became a loud home game for the last 10 minutes. As a Davidson grad, I am very proud of their accomplishments on the court and in the classroom–true student-athletes. On to Detroit to play Wisconsin. GO WILDCATS!!!
Chris Wright played well. He could have been a big help for State this year.
Carolina was close to perfect today. They looked unbeatable. I don’t know much about Washington State, but they better come to Charlotte ready for war. Thompson and Stepheson were a combined 13 for 13 on field goals. Lawson is back to his old form.
Washington State is a physical team, they’ve got a few snipers on the outside and good interior play. Not sure about their point guard play as i’ve only watched one or 2 games but Pomeroy basically has a toss up for the game.
L, 71-69[66] (45%). 45% chance of upsetting UNC? I’d take it.
http://www.kenpom.com/sr.php?team=Washington%20St.&y=2008
They’re the polar opposite of Carolina, with Carolina being in the top 5 for Tempo and Washington State being in the bottom 5. 59 possession per game to Carolinas 75. The people that shoot 3’s regularly are hitting them at around 40% so they’re a very patient team on offense and they also have one of the lowest turnover rates in the whole NCAA field. Carolina thrives off bad shots and turnovers so WSU may be the antidote as they don’t do either of those.
They don’t crash the offensive boards much, but why would they need to when they have a Efg% of 55% ? Hard to grab rebounds off shots that go in :P. Reminds me of the game against VT last year when we shot 65% and had 0 offensive rebounds. Who needs em when every shot goes in? They’re good on the other end of the court on defensive boards though.
Personally I picked them for an upset over Carolina. They have strong players all across the board along with TWO guys getting a good amount of minutes that are 6-10. One of them being 270 pounds. If the refs are fair, hansbro isn’t going to have a good day. Also, it’s much easier to slow a game down than speed it up, and WSU seems to be one of the best in the nation at doing that. I honestly think they have a better chance of beating Carolina than the Volunteers just because of the clashing styles.
wow i just heard, Pitt lost that game? so both Georgetown and Pitt don’t make the sweet sixteen. just wow.
In my brackets i had both G’town and Duke losing; prescient if i do say so myself.
Regarding the comments on Duke…Duke lost for the same reason that alot of 3-point shooting teams lose (AND WHY WE LOST SO MUCH), no PG. If you guys will remember, the first game that Javy really played well in was the Duke game in Cameron. As the game wore on, i realized it was not because Javy was exceptionally good, he’s pretty decent, but its that Paulus is Molasses slow. Javy beat him off the dribble and when Scheyer switched over he beat him too.
Point Guard, you gotta have one, and a damn good one.
And its precisely that reason that, although i wanted UNX to be the first team to ever lose to a 16seed, they are probably gonna win the tournament. Not only can Lawson dominate a game (not like Curry) but (who was that kid that filled in for him, forgot his name) he can too. Plus Ellington looks all-world and Hopsbro-Flopsbro, well he’s just Hopsbro-Flopsbro. Haven’t seen any of their games though.
I heard New Jersey is burning because of the Duke loss
“I thought Wall was already committed”
Nope. You might be thinking of Julius Mays, who will come next year. Wall is two years away. The rumor on Wall is that it will come down to NC State (proximity, family’s favorite) vs. the pull of Nike.
The chemistry and attitude of this year’s team was so piss-poor awful, I really don’t know what to expect from next year’s squad. I don’t think there’s anyway Hickson returns. We were bad even when Degand was here and I don’t think we’ll be adding any freshmen of immediate consequence (though they may contribute in years to come).
With the exception of four players (Horner, McCauley, Costner and Fells), next year’s squad will be all Lowe’s. Will people still be saying, “Wait till Lowe gets his own guys”?
Noah - I do think Mays should be able to help us right off the bat. It sounds like he’s a good combo guard - something that we really need right now. My only concern is whether Lowe will play him at the 2 spot or if we’ll continue to stick to a rather rigid position system.
In other words, I think Mays can help us address outside shooting, team speed, and ball handling issues, especially if we play him at the 2 spot in combo w/ Javi and/or Degand.
Of course, I thought pushing Grant to the 4 spot would have helped in those same areas, but we never saw that either.
Duke should be extremely pleased with this season and where they are.
Signed,
Lee Fowler
Trip - interesting info from Kenpom.
Washington State has really surprised me thus far. It seems like they fell apart of a great start, but they’ve been impressive in the tourney thus far. They absolutely shallacked the Domers.
I’ve never seen Mays, so I’m only going by what others who HAVE seen claim. And they keep saying that in time, he’ll be a good contributor. But they caution against expecting him to come in and start right off the bat.
Of course, they could be wrong.
“Not sure about their point guard play as i’ve only watched one or 2 games” (referring to Wazzu)
Taylor Rochestie and Derrick Low are both very good guards … each handle the ball well, are quick (not necessarily fast), do a great job at controlling the tempo of the game (like you referred to), and can knock down open 3’s … Low led the team in scoring and can hit some from way downtown
Wazzu’s best attributes are team defense, tempo control, and hitting open shots … This game should be a really interesting clash of styles
Kyle Weaver is an excellent defender, and it may help Wazzu if they have him guard Ellington / Green
Daven Harmeling could offer a match-up problem on offense as he is a good shooting big guy from 3 … Hopefully, the Holes will open w/ Thompson on him and Harmeling can get loose for a couple of early 3’s
Aron Baynes and Robbie Cowgill are the big guys and we can hope they won’t get into early foul trouble
… Baynes has the size and strength to matchup w/ Handsjob, but he is not exactly fleet of foot
I’ll be interested to see how the Holes look facing their first really good half-court defensive team since playing Va Tech in the acc semis (I’m discounting Clemson b/c their defense is based on the full court press) …
I watch a lot of college basketball and that is my mini scouting report on Wazzu, for whatever that’s worth (nothing)
… I am impressed w/ them when I see them play, hopefully I’ll be even more impressed on Thursday !
Noah, you think if Hickson goes that this team next year could possibly be as bad as Les’ 7-19 team? (1993? 1994?). Even with the terrible PG play and absence of Hickson, this team SHOULD have more talent than that awful team of Les’, but when you extrapolate the underachievement of this year’s squad to next year, it doesn’t seem so implausible…
“With the exception of four players (Horner, McCauley, Costner and Fells), next year’s squad will be all Lowe’s. Will people still be saying, “Wait till Lowe gets his own guys”?”
I am not a Lowe apologist nor will I ever become one, but that’s quite a bit unfair. Lee Fowler set Lowe back one year by dragging out a humiliating coaching search and allowing committed recruits to bail on the program. By the time Lowe got on board, he had to scramble big time to put together bodies, so I wouldn’t really call some of the recruits he felt he had to take just to field a team as “his guys.” Lowe is in the mix with a number of high level recruits like Wall and Brown—those are the guys he wants to be “his.” If he gets them, he will likely do just fine. If he doesn’t, he should be gone—as Herb should have been in year 5 when he went 13-16 with a team completely composed of his guys, right?
(I just hope Lee Fowler is long gone before anyone else…)
“With the exception of four players (Horner, McCauley, Costner and Fells), next year’s squad will be all Lowe’s. Will people still be saying, “Wait till Lowe gets his own guys”?”
Yes, and with good reason. The four players you mention are three of the top five and four of the top 7 players on this team.
That’s why 98% of Div. I coaches are given at least four or five years to prove themselves. It takes that long for the old guard to graduate out and the new guard to step in and assume leadership positions on the team. Three years in, Sid will still have Herb’s players playing 60% of the available minutes for this team.
Until Sid’s players comprise the overwhelming majority of the minutes played, how can anyone tell if the bigger issue with this team is Sid’s ability to coach/recruit or the quality of the talent he was left with?
Noah, not sure if your reference to NCSU “or Nike” for Wall is meant to refer to UNC, but I don’t think the Heels are still pursuing Wall since Dex Strickland committed … and I’m pretty sure Wall has been quoted as saying UNC is out b/c of Strickland’s commit. If the Nike reference was more generic Nike steering him to a Nike school, I have no idea.
Jay Bilas on the Jim Rome Show this morning:
1) Duke had the flu, “but that’s no excuse”… sooooo, don’t bring it up;
and
2) Duke is a “vastly superior team” compared to Belmont…heh… Duke got carried into the second seed, and was lucky to win that game.
Cowherd calls Duke the Notre Dame of basketball. I love that one.
Stanford won and their coach wasn’t even on the floor. K needs to man up.
“Will people still be saying, “Wait till Lowe gets his own guys”?”
I’ve been saying “Wait till next year” as long as I’ve been a State fan. Why not change a few words?
1) I don’t know how bad next year’s team will be. Are they going to act like a bunch of 12-year-old girls and pout for three months? This year’s squad was far more talented than the record showed. I honestly don’t know what to say to someone who thinks that ECU was better than us…or that UVa was *actually* thirty points better than us.
2) The fact remains that 3/4 of next year’s squad will be Lowe’s recruits. That he chose to go out and hand out scholarship’s like they were flyers for a Crazy Bob’s Mattress Sale is HIS fault, no one else’s. Lowe-apologists are running out of excuses.
3) Ninety-eight percent of college coaches are given plenty of time because 98 percent of them don’t crap the bed the way Lowe has. They don’t blow off one year of recruiting and blow off another year of S&C. They actually have…ya know…a plan. No one has to tell them that it’s important to have a point guard and for your players to be able to run from one end of the court to the other.
4) The “nike” reference is not code for UNC. We are the only non-Nike school in Wall’s final list. The others are Memphis, Okie State and Oregon. There might be one more that I’m forgetting. No, it’s not an accident that the other schools are affiliated with Nike.
“Lowe-apologists are running out of excuses.”
In year 2? Not at NC State. Excuses don’t run out at NC State until year 6. Then, you either step down as Les did or you finally execute Stage 1 of “the plan” and get someone else in to install a new “offense” and coach the team for you while simultaneously promising a top 5 recruit that he will be handed the entire program to carry on his skinny Harlem back. Stage 2 of “the plan” is to get a point guard—this usually happens around year 11. Then, it is straight up gold from there like a venture capitalist hockey stick projection circa 1999…
Noah - Do you think Lowe “blew off” recruiting for this year? (The class w/ CJ Williams and Julius Mays).
You can’t really hold him responsible for the 1 man class he “inherited” when he got here since he wasn’t even announced until after the signing period had long since expired.
When it comes to noah’s hatred of Lowe he can and does blame him for anything and everything.
I blame him for anything and everything that he actually did.
And yes, I blame him for signing a bunch of wing players this year. I blame him for giving scholarships to people like Degand and M. Johnson and f-ing Bartosz Lewandowski (a firable offense in it’s own right).
SFN: I’ve got no problem with criticizing the Marques Johnson move. But, the Degand move is still in the assessment period and right now I don’t see how that was a bad move.
Additionally, the Lewandowski move is completely irrelevant and made no impact on the program. So we used one of our multiple available scholarships on a 7′5 guy for only one year? That didn’t hurt anyone. If a 7′5 guy shows promise then you’ve gotten something that nobody else has. If he doesn’t, then he moves on into the abyss. That is exactly what happened. No scholarship impact to us at all. How could something so benign and irrelevant be such a bad thing?
The REAL story there is that we had so many UNUSED scholarships because the previous staff (and AD’s struggles in the search process) left the cupboard bare of not only talent, but also numbers.
Noah : You are correct Sid is to blame for that product on the floor and for moe ,larry and curly pt guards he brought in as HIS recruits. Also responsible for a system,discipline,offense and defense.
He must be made of teflon because most of you all give him a lot a slack,you want to give him 5,6 years open your eyes I think you see where we are heading .
^ How is wanting to give the coach 3 to 4 years the same as giving him 5 or 6 years?
Most people whom I respect are consistent on giving Coach Lowe a fair shake for 3 to 4 years. That isn’t asking so much.
I wonder if we have a seven win season next year if the powers that be will have the cajones to pull the plug the way UNC did on Matt Doherty…
I couldn’t disagree more with SFN on Lewandowski. You can blow it off all you want by saying, “Well, that guy’s gone so it doesn’t matter.” However, It completely ignores the fact that Sidney Lowe decided to allocate 8.5 percent of his total scholarships to a guy who would NEVER contribute a thing to his basketball program…a guy who would never do anything but sit at the end of the bench and clap for his teammates. Lowe got bailed out of that horrible decision by a terrible knee injury.
And yes, I would criticize Herb Sendek for giving Adam Simons and the Flatt kid (Jeremy?) scholarships too. I actually don’t have a problem with holding back scholarships. It’s far easier to find and sign an ACC caliber player in the future than it is to turn a non-ACC caliber player into a guy who can help you.
Why is it a big deal? Because it is illustrative of horrible judgement. And have we not seen that over and over again from Lowe? It’s poor judgement to ignore strength and conditioning. It’s poor judgement to ignore a cancerous rift in your team. There’s more to this and as it comes to light, we’ll come back to it.
Degand is, on his best day with two healthy knees, basically a backup point guard. With him, we still lost to ECU and we still looked horrible down in the Old Spice tourney.
Why was it a bad move? Because he was the third-string point guard on a crappy Iowa State team. You can sort of rationalize Marques Johnson, if you ignore the fact that the coaches had tape on him that they could have looked at and which would have told them everything they needed to know. Tennessee was a good team with a ton of point guards and Johnson was sort of squeezed out.
But Iowa State sucked. And there were two people that were better than Degand. You want to take a backup from UCLA? Okay, maybe there’s something there. But the STARTERS at Iowa State wouldn’t help you.
I don’t need to look at a single bit of tape of the third-string quarterback at Rice or Sam Houston State to know that he can’t play quarterback at NC State. No matter how bad Daniel Evans is, you won’t solve that problem by bringing in a scrub off a terrible team.
Lowe IS going to get a long time to prove himself. I’d be willing to bet that unless he removes himself from the equation, he’ll get the better part of a decade. It’s worth repeating…the only basketball coach to ever get fired from NC State was Jim Valvano.
But I was horribly opposed to Lowe from the start. I said on this board that he would be a specatcular disaster. NOTHING has happened to change my opinion of that. On the court, off the court, he has been every bit the disaster that I thought Lowe (and Steve Lavin) would be. A couple of days of hot shooting by Brandon Costner last March have not erased two years of terrible leadership.
Like SFN, I can see questioning one of the offers like say MJ as a bad move but not all of them. For example, Degand was brought in completely as insurance should Chris Wright not come through—and to act like Lee Fowler isn’t to blame for the recruiting mess Lowe found himself in is completely stupid as Chris Wright PUBLICLY stated he couldn’t figure out why NC State couldn’t get a coach weeks into the search. Gee, I wonder if that just *might* have had him second guess NC State a little bit in addition to allowing Freeman and others to jump in and re-recruit Wright while Fowler was busy trying to read Beilein’s out clause.
It’s pretty sad to guys apt to defend Herb’s great use of scholarships for Justin Flatt, Adam Simons, and others (just not a point guard) totally trashing Sid in year 2—as if Lee Fowler had ANY other options as far as coaches go after exhausting all of his options like the great Steve Lavin. Hell, even Sid was smart enough to recognize what a totally mess of a program Fowler had made and got a 6th year after agreeing to a 5 yr deal—it was THAT bad.
Okay, first of all…you need to re-read what I said. I am not defending Herb at all for bringing in Flatt and Adam Simons. I’m attacking Herb for doing that. There is NO POINT whatsoever in bringing in non-ACC players if you have any hope of fielding a competitive team. It’s far FAR better to simply hold on to those scholarships and try again next year than to be saddled with a guy for four years (or talk the guy into transferring) who can’t help you one damn bit.
Secondly, as far as bringing in someone for insurance — why not bring me in? I still have five years of eligibility.
Farnold Degand had proven that he couldn’t play in the ACC. It was quantifiable. He couldn’t beat out two other scrub point guards for a crappy Iowa State team…but he’s going to help us? No.
Whoops…I just looked upstream and either my previous post about Simons and Flatt has been deleted or simply went missing.
So…ignore my exasperation in the previous post.
Noah,
I don’t disagree with some of your questioning with regard to scholarships (or the S&C either for that matter).
I just think you are incredibly short-sided and ridiculous with regard to:
LOWE: By the time Lee Fowler finally got to Lowe, there was no other choice—so maybe your disdain for Lowe should first be directed at getting rid of Fowler so that we have some shot at getting a decent coach when Lowe fails as you have predicted. So, get rid of Fowler first. Then, fire away at Lowe—who was hired by Lee Fowler.
INSURANCE: In building a program, you have to get momentum early and have some luck. Pete Gillen was a successful college coach prior to UVA. He chose to run everyone off at UVA when he came in and free up scholarships and was able to bring in 2 McD AA’s in Mapp and Watson immediately. Unfortunately, he chose NOT to go the insurance route, so, when Mapp went down, Gillen was pretty much cooked and NEVER recovered, even though he had a McD AA stud in Watson down low. Lowe & Co. chose to go the insurance route with Degand. While you can question buying too much insurance after that, based on the NC State injury history, needing to have bodies and hopefully get early momentum for program rebuild, and the fact that only UNC and other similar programs get stars to come sit the bench, I don’t have a problem with Lowe spending a scholarship on Degand’s speed, etc. as insurance. Plus, kids like Chris Wright build their relationships years in advance—Chris got to know Herb when he was in the 9th grade—so not only was there no one left on the recruiting heap, it was pre-determined that Lowe would need a full recruiting cycle to even have a chance at catching up with other coaches except for a few special situations. (Before you jump on the “THAT’S WHY I WANTED A COLLEGE COACH AND HATE LOWE BLAH BLAH BLAH” please refer back to the fact that you weren’t the AD, Lee Fowler was, Lee Fowler couldn’t get anyone else to take the job, and we have Lowe as a result.)
(As another aside, as terrible as Degand was and the team at the Old Spice, didn’t we beat a Sweet 16 team there and do better at that crappy tourney than at least 2 other NCAA teams? Didn’t we beat another Sweet 16 team like a week later with crappy Degand at the helm?)
LEE FOWLER’S IMPACT ON RECRUITING & A QUICK START: I think you totally and completely misjudge this for some reason. It makes no sense. How the hell do you act like Lee Fowler’s drag on humiliating coaching search did not damage the program badly and set Lowe’s efforts back on the recruiting trail. You would think the public questioning by Chris Wright would be enough for you as well as Davis and Werner making it pretty clear they were likely to head out—BEFORE Lowe was named coach. It may be ruined now based on this season’s results, but Lowe got on the top 2-3 lists of a bunch of top recruits for 2009 once he got a little time in—despite Fowler’s waste of time and national humiliation of the program. If Lowe doesn’t come through with a 2009 class, he will surely fail. (Before you start the “YOU CAN’T KEEP SID BASED ON A FUTURE RECRUITING CLASS BLAH BLAH BLAH WTNY BLAH BLAH BLAH” again please refer back to the fact that you aren’t the AD, Lee Fowler is unfortunately, and since Lee Fowler couldn’t get anyone else to take the job when he had the chance, it matters not what Lowe does or who Lowe recruits because the program is fighting a real uphill battle until it gets rid of “Coach” Fowler.)