With last night’s loss, it’s pretty clear that NC State will finish 4-12 in ACC play, with no post-season. We will finish last if Virginia wins one of its final four games.
Even so, I managed to watch last night’s game with a relaxed and calm demeanor. I don’t remember so much as a “damn it” coming from my mouth, or a scowl on my face. My 6-year old got pretty exasperated, but I assured her that everything was fine, and I was pretty used to it [losing] by now. This got knowing smiles from the other 2 people on my row.
It made me think about the “stages of grief” - I know almost nothing about psychology, but I do remember Lisa Simpson talking to Bart about it. I thought there were four, but turns out there are five. Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance. Thanks, Wikipedia!
There was lots of denial during the non-conference games. Sure, I could see that there were problems, but we worked through them to win the Old Spice Classic, and swept the key stretch of games (Davidson, Cincy, Seton Hall) to mostly make up for debacles against New Orleans and East Carolina.
Then, anger. It definitely flared up when we lost to ECU, but that stage didn’t really begin until the Clemson game. For me, it peaked right after the home loss to Georgia Tech, which I noted was completely unacceptable. Many of my fellow Wolfpackers were still in denial, but here’s what I said:
Forget this happy crap. We just LOST AT HOME to an 8-9 team. We committed 18 turnovers and let our opponent shoot 59 percent from the field. That’s inexcusable. Full rant will be posted later.
I’m sorry, but I’ve had it up to here with sucking or near-sucking in every revenue sport, almost every single damned year.
Time would prove me right, with the Bees sitting at 4-8 in ACC play, 11-15 overall.
Next came bargaining. I point to my “path to 8-8″ post. It seemed logical on its face, and laid out an “acceptable” path to make everything OK. Maybe not what we’d hoped in the preseason, but things would be mostly back on track. Was I fooling myself? Damn right. I didn’t even entertain the possibility of what actually happened over the next 6 games.
Then came depression - second half of the Maryland game and the meltdown at Boston College. Excruciating games to watch. It wasn’t mathematically impossible to get back on my “path”, but I knew in my gut that it wasn’t going to happen. There was still some anger, but mostly I just hung my head. I wrote off the 2007-08 season, and subconsciously started laying the groundwork for Stage Five.
And there I was at the RBC last night - fully immersed in acceptance. Let us know how your process is going in the comments.
I reached acceptance last night. No cussing. No kicking furniture. I was truly happy for Trevor.
We suck. I’ll be stunned if we win again. By the way, if we finish on a nine-game losing streak that will match the longest in the history of the program, which came in 1991-92 under Les. At least we ended that one with a win at Carolina.
I’m at stage 6. Go Wisconsin!
I’d say I’m teetering on the verge of acceptance. I’m pretty much resigned to our obvious fate, but every once in a while I look at the roster and think, “It doesn’t have to be this way!” Then I look at the roster again and think, “Oh yeah, actually it does.”
I have season tickets. I was working a little late at work yesterday when my fiance called me and asked me why I was still at work when we had to get to the game. I had completely forgotten about the game, and for a moment contemplated staying at work because it would probably be more enjoyable than going to the game. That is the point I am at with this team. I have accepted that they stink, but I still get depressed watching them.
I reached acceptance as well, I didn’t watch.
I hit acceptance after the BC game… that one convinced me that we had no hope, as the manner in which we lost demonstrated a total and unrecoverable collapse, from the head coach down to the bench.
Since then, it’s been easy, with no emotional investment whatsoever, and very little in the way of time commitment. I haven’t watched more than 10 minutes of a game since then, and I don’t expect to until the ACC Tournament, when I’ll watch only because I watch the whole tournament.
Acceptance is a happy place to be.
April 12th, spring football game. Just sayin…
I am also at the acceptance stage, but I don’t like it. I am proud of Trevor and Tracy for not quitting like so many others on the team have done. They deserve to start the rest of our games. Their interviews were dead on last night. They sound like leaders while our alleged leaders sound done. They got all 3 of our offensive rebounds last night, 2 for Tracy and 1 for Trevor.
i’m in bargaining. i’ve got a free cd of my choice coming my way if we reach 5 acc wins. I JUST NEED ONE MORE!!!! (on another note, it’s true that we’ve won ALL GAMES PLAYED IN FLORIDA this season, right?)
I logged onto my computer last night and did work while the game was on. It was more pleasurable.
I have accepted that we suck
Anyone read the post game comments? Sid is blaming the kids. Deserved or not the buck stops with the head coach. I personally always detested coaches that blamed the kids (Tom Reed comes immediately to mind). I think those comments comments give me more grief than the inexplicable play.
Lowe Blames ‘Awful’ Stares
http://www.charlotte.com/hoops/v-print/story/513377.html
I’m still in depression. I can’t see a light at the end of the tunnel… That light being Lee Fowler getting the hell out of here.
Stage 6 is one that Wolfpack faithful are all too familiar with…
BLIND HOPE.
I’m there, looking for silver lining. Most have moved on to the football season; thats one way to handle it, I prefer to stick with the same sport and the proverbial “next season”.
This is what it means to be a Wolfpack fan.
Go Pack!
same… I DVR’d the game and watched it without yelling or throwing anything at the TV. my only comment was “we are just a bad team”. It was nice to see Trev and Tracy hustle and provide effort. The rest of the team was going through the motions. I was also happy to see Lowe FINALLY publicly call out his team. to little to late, but it will hopefully set a tone for next year.
The only comparable late season stretch like this I remember was in ‘84. Northeastern with Reggie Lewis, who later played for the Celtics, was our only win down the stretch. We even lost to FSU in Reynolds in the NIT for my final BBall game at State.
I noticed that I just laughed at the crappy play last night rather than getting pissed. I think the second Carolina game was when I had finally given up on this season. My family had started avoiding me on game days and now they’ve started to ask “Why do you even watch?” I tell them “Because they’re my team and I won’t quit on them, even though they’ve quit on themselves.”
If I didn’t have Wisconsin to fall back on I’d really be screwed– all I’d have left to pay attention to is my Cubs. That’s even worse than being a state fan.
OK..lets break it down for next year
1. Sid must go out and sign a 5 star point guard if we want to consistently compete in this league and in this state. No disrespect to Javi or Marques but the point guard position is the most important player on the team and when we play against a Ty Lawson or a Greg Paulus, we have to be able to match their talent in that position. I ran into JAY BILAS the other day at the mall and asked him “Hey Jay..whats wrong with my wolfpack?”..he simply replied “No PointGuard”
2. Sid must teach his future teams how to play team defense. I attended a Duke game this year and was so impressed with their defense. You see…in order to play great defense you must have 2 things…
first…intesity
second..cohesiveness
Dukes intesity on defense is incredible. The go non-stop for 40 minutes. There help defense is equally inpressive. They cut of baselines, they step out on screens, they rotate when somebody gets beat off the ball to stop the drive and they box out. Lets look at those 2 ingredients I listed above…we SOMETIMES play with intensity but not once did I see this team play with cohesiveness. Watch Duke if you want to learn how to play good team D.
3. Conditioning…conditioning…conditioning
I was in denial for years 9 and 10 of Sendek and quickly progressed through Anger, Bargaining and Depression during our coaching search. Been at Acceptance most of these season with some outright HATE thrown in when we lose to UNC-CH.
GoldenChain, I give Sid credit for not publicly bashing the players in the past. They have been bad before, but he always tried to offer public encouragement. Enough is enough, they were not getting the message, and good for him to say it finally.
I am not for throwing people under the bus, but it is time. Sid said they can teach rebounding, but the guys still have to do it. Big Ben had 0 rebounds, ZERO! What I saw of his interview last night, he is as upset as we are. It’s about time.
I sold all my tickets earlier this month as a fund raiser and am working on my fantasy curling team.
Hey - I can say that I’m in acceptance. The first sign of this was 2 Saturday’s ago when I raked the yard rather than watch the Clemson game. For the UNC game, I missed the 15 minutes jogging. Last night, I missed much of the game as I jogged, then showered, then ate at Moe’s - I wasn’t dare going to ask them to turn the channel to the “State” game.
As for Sid - it sounds like he’s in full-tilt anger mode. Honestly, I’ve never heard a Wolfpack coach so angry. I remember a coach at UNC calling out his players…He was just replaced by Butch Davis.
Sid does need to take some ownership of this. His current “I just don’t have the players to play how I want to” spiel may be true, but he’s responsible for half of the kids on this roster…Harris, MJ, Javi, JJ, Tracy. And he really went off on JJ last night.
matty, you are right on. our problems are cohesiveness/chemistry and conditioning. Duke and UNC are so well conditioned. we look so tired and soft all the time. Lastly, PG is what we need. Last night only amplified how glaring we suck at that position. how many dribbles did we lose off our legs.
I’m at stage 7. THE HURRICANES ARE ON FIRE!!!! and I’m loving it!!!!
The RBC was really built for them, right? Might as well enjoy those red seats for something.
^primacy..i wish the hell we would move back to Reynolds. Games belong on Campus. Leave the RBC to the Canes.
I no longer care. I listened to the radio broadcast and when we got close a couple of times in the second half, I wasn’t excited. I just knew we wouldn’t get any closer. I think we should do the ACC a favor and jettison our basketball program. We are an insult to the great basketball tradition of the ACC, right now.
I have accepted it as well. I stayed fairly calm thru the majority of the game and even surprised myself. I am truly happy for Trevor or “Floppy” as a friend of mine calls him. He really stepped up last night as well as Tracy Smith. Most of my thoughts after the game were about the positives: Trevor, Tracy, etc, instead of the many negatives.
BJD: My daughter referred to him as “that curly guy.”
Acceptance. No doubt about it, I fully expected us to lose last night and wasnt mad at all when we did. The only thing that still makes me angry is that as a state fan, it seems like I have to go through this progession of greif almost every season with one of the major sports. Im sick and tired of saying and the end of fall, well at least we’ve got basketball season, only to be disappointed, or at the end of march to say at least we’ve got football, only to be disappointed. (though I do have hope for TOB and the coming years) Goodluck to all the boys this offseason I hope they can take advatage of it. Go pack.
Total acceptance. I’ve been thinking that we should part ways with Sid after this year but after last night I am changing how I look at this. I think it will be fascinating to see how a guy with no relevant experience and no demonstrated aptitude for the job handles such a dire situation.
If you go to the games it is obvious that the coaches hate the players, the players hate the coaches and some of the players hate each other. It even looks like the coaches argue amongst themselves. I cannot recall a more dsyfunctional group in my years of watching the ACC and the only real parallel would be the doh years at unc-ch. Watching how Sid & Co. respond to this should be interesting. I am viewing it like a bad reality show on CW or something. Take a guy off the street and put him in an impossibly difficult situation and let the hilarity ensue. That’s where we are and that’s about the only entertainment value left. I think about some of those poor buffoons that try out for American Idol when I see Sid trying to coach this team.
Now that Sid is openly throwing the players under the bus and not accepting any responsibility (hello, Chuck, nice shoes) I think the death spiral has begun in yr 2. Based on this course I can only imagine the things that will happen over the next 3 yrs as we hope that Sid figures it out. Given 5 yrs I think that Sid can end up making Les look like Red Auerbach. Since we clearly don’t aspire to greatness anymore (thanks Lee) I guess we take what we get.
Of course, if we had a heart we’d cut Sid a nice check to spend a couple of years getting his family life together and then go back to anonymity as a 2nd assistant in the NBA. Instead we’ll keep him in this no-win situation that he is completely unprepared for. I think I’ll pop some popcorn.
indeed, there doesn’t seem to be any point to being infuriated at this point; i saw where this was heading a while back.
pretty stinky sophomore effort by coach Lowe, and it doesn’t bode well, but i think the real time to evaluate his performance is the end of next season
as a wolfpack fan i cannot help but remain in anger…i am sure that pulling for state has taken years off my life.
I guess I’m at Stage Six - called the “let’s hurry and get this season over with and move on to the next………….” stage.
This team has just flat out quit. Whose fault is it? I honestly don’t know but I suspect there’s plenty of guilt to go around here.
My suggestion to Sid would be to install an off-season program that forces the returning players to work their butts off. Those who choose not to participate have two choices - turn in your scholly or, at best, find yourself a permanent seat at the far end of the bench. And make sure it’s comfortable - you’ll be spending the entire season there.
In my mind next year is the critical year that will make or break Sid’s career here. I don’t mean I expect a national championship next year. But I DO expect that everybody on the team will all be pulling in the same direction and working their tails off. If Sid can’t at least accomplish that much next year it’s time to start looking elsewhere.
BJD: Agree completely.
I also want to go back to Reynolds. We have top engineering and architectural programs, and we should be able to figure out how to expand and renovate Reynolds and keep basketball on campus. This could be done while the men and women play their games at the RBC. As I remember, V’s vision for the new arena that became the RBC center was for the Centennial Campus rather than the Fairgrounds/Carter-Finley area.
Mike, I would say that the way to get non-performers to buck up isn’t to call them out in public. How does it make you feel when your boss calls you out in public?
If Sid has been frustrated with their efforts then why doesn’t he sit their bu++s for a game. I think those of us in WP Nation would applaud him for doing that. At least that would demonstrate that he has sommmmeee…. kind of control over this team.
Some of the substitutions have made zero sense to me. Tracy Smith has played better than anyone in the last few games but gets very few minutes. Let him start and let him play, he certainly couldn’t do any worse than our current forwards.
Believe me, as a student who suffered through the 9 game skid in the Les years… this team is worse. Much worse.
We will never compete with the Heels and the Dukies until we show the discipline and teamwork that they consistently put together.
You guys do know that moving back to Reynolds will never happen, right? If you are saying that you wish it were somehow possible then I can understand that but if you are actually hoping it will happen at some point then you will be disappointed. That will NEVER happen for about a million reasons.
Ahh, looks like the delusional fans are well into the process of transferring their vastly overinflated expectations to the football team. Look, I think Tom O’Brien is going to get it done, but I have news for you dispirited hoops fans: football isn’t going to satisfy your craving for wins this year.
I see no reason to believe that breaking in a new guy at Quarterback is going to go any better than breaking in a new guy at point guard went this winter. Given our schedule and our significant shortcomings at several key positions, matching last year’s 5-7 mark will be a tremendous accomplishment.
Therefore, I suggest you find some other way of dealing with your basketball grief, or you’re going to be in here this November singing the same song, different verse.
Oh…one more thing…it ain’t going to be baseball either…anyone here at Avent’s uninspiring performance at the Raleigh Sports Club a couple of weeks ago?
I’m still not buying that these guys have been coached how to play basketball the proper way. Sid can say he’s told them what to do and prepared them, but the proof is on the court and they look lost. I don’t think they are purposely sabotaging the season, so that leads me to believe they honestly don’t know what the heck they’re doing out there.
With this much internal strife, it’s only logical we’ll see defections. Careful what we wish for there. If we lose too many guys we’ll be back where we were last year, with a six-pack. When they run Bartosz through a physical to see if there’s any chance he can un-retire then we know we’re doomed.
In one sense the next coaching search might not be as difficult. We were coming off a string of 5 straight NCAA tourney appearances, which some guys might have considered a tough act to follow, especially given that we all wanted more. If Sid takes this bus from the ditch to over the cliff next year, any potential coach out there will figure they can certainly do better.
Last stage: “Over it” until NC State sports proves SOMETHING! Win a damn title in a revenue sport you losers!
I accept that the season is done, that we’ll probably lose the last 2 games and be one and done in the ACC tournament. I accept that Sid’s got some pouting players who don’t care and are defeated before they walk on the court. I accept that maybe Sid’s in over his head.
What I do not accept is that it has to be this way. NCSU is the biggest school in the UNC system in terms of enrollment. Why do we have 2nd and 3rd rate Football and Basketball teams? Insanity has been defined as doing the same things while hoping for different results. It’s time to stop the insanity.
I actually think when ur talking about sports there should be a stage 5b: Acceptance with laughter!
I am actually at that stage. The only other time I ever was at this stage was during the last 2 seasons of Les Robinson. I had accepted that we sucked….and always were gonna suck so long as he was coach…so I began to almost enjoy the losing and embracing it. Then I would listen to the post-game just to see how ridiculous our coach would sound at trying to describe why we sucked. This would always bring laughter. Then my brother and I would discuss the comments…bringing even more disgust and laughter!
With ths team I ahve reached that point. I am predicting how we would suck…watching it play out…listening to our coach stumble thru post game with one ridiculous excuse after another…then I call my brother and we laugh at the insanity of rooting for NC STate!
im at stage 7….cant wait for football season
im at stage 7….cant wait for football season
i think that’s our basketball teams attitude too.
anger
What stage is it where we get to read the tell-all book about the turmoil and in-fighting? (And will there be more than one book?)
jj hit for 9 last night,guess he moved up lottery wise??
jj hit for 9 last night,guess he moved up lottery wise??
Because of the loss of 2/3 of an incoming recruiting class and the the early departure of 2/3 of another recruiting class, we were left without a lot of depth. Sid tried to grab some bodies to fill the gaps and it hasn’t worked out. We have some serious problems talent wise, as well as the other problems on this team. A Stephon Marbury or Chris Paul could probably mask over some of these problems, but they are there none the less.
I’ve gone from wanting fire Sid yesterday to resolved to see how the 2009 recruiting class shakes out. Next year is lost, for all intensive purposes, in my opinion. I just want to see a cohesive team, playing hard, next year.
We have to wait and see if he can get an impact class in for 2009 and 2010. Sad part is Sid and Monte really do want NCSU to do well and aren’t looking at this job as a stepping stone. I just wish Sid would own up to making mistakes and not getting players ready. Hell, Roy whined about UNC’s performance in the second half, against us, in Chapell Hill, because we shot more than 50% for the half and felt he needed emphasize defense more.
Be interesting to see how many players transfer or leave early, because they have their degrees, since this is the only way we free up enough scholarships to get an impact class for ‘09.
This really is very similar to Les’ later years. The biggest differences are that Les had demonstrated some success as a college coach and actually had better credentials when he got here and that folks seemed to generally like Les and protect him for personal reasons. Les also came in under much more difficult circumstances.
“I see no reason to believe that breaking in a new guy at Quarterback is going to go any better than breaking in a new guy at point guard went this winter.”
Just for fun, 1 reason it may turn out differently is there exists the possibility the quarterback being broken in will be a 4-star, highly rated QB who shined brightly in “All-Star” competition.
“Oh…one more thing…it ain’t going to be baseball either…anyone here at Avent’s uninspiring performance at the Raleigh Sports Club a couple of weeks ago?”
Well, baseball will again be middle of the road- primarily because Avent seems to believe pitching wins championships. That’s a great model to follow in professional baseball. Not-so-much in college, where aluminum bats mean if you can’t score, you can’t consistently win. Avent’s teams are following a trend of stellar pitching, anemic offense. It doesn’t help matters that the offensive studs he does recruit have no intention of going to college– Justin Upton for example (sure does make that recruiting class look good, though…)
As for the rest of the basketball season, how about acceptance with some fun? Perhaps a drink per turnover. Announcer says State needs a PG? Take a swig. Give up an offensive board? Put ‘er down. Opponent hits a three with the shot clock expiring? Imbibe. Camera pans to a constipated-looking Sidney Lowe on the sideline? Cuervo time!
I reached acceptance a while back. However, I am still totally unsure as to the Cause of Death this season.
As others said above, I’m a little concerned when a coach calls out his players in public like that. However, at this stage I’m in favor of whatever radical procedure can be done to get things on track. And honestly, I can’t help but wonder if Lowe isn’t starting a process to justify some off-season changes. Obviously I don’t know anything about this; I am speculating.
I am at a loss for what has happened this season. And those who think they have the definitive answer, well, none have been very compelling. There are just too many questions. I think it’s a huge cluster**** of poor off-season management, player hubris, a key injury at already the weakest position, terrible leadership, no ability to face adversity (whether it’s sitting on the bench or facing a deficit), on and on and on.
The more I think, the more reasons I find, and the more interrelated they all seem. It could be there is one or two factors that have kinked this process up into a tangled ball. Who knows?
Question: do the stages necessarily have to be linear?? Of course not. I would say i am in a cycle of grief and I think that it’s a direct result of the cycle of sports seasons. And does we necessarily have to feel each stage by itself, i.e. is being in one stage exclusive of being in another stage at the same time? No, as well.
Denial = 1
Anger = 2
Bargaining = 3
Depression = 4
Acceptance = 5
So for instance, when the seasons start and we are thinking about the possibilities we are pretty high and definitely in stage 1 (denial) and pretty much at the same time we’re going to ourselves: but wait, who did we really get recruits-wise, it will take time to develop them, they are only 2 stars, etc. so we kind of mix stage 4 and 5 together so i’ll call it: a depressed acceptance. Because its not a happy acceptance.
Then there’s the whole question of these games themselves.
We start out at 2 and 1, we miss the first few shots, don’t play D, start falling behind then we are at 2 and 3 (angry with what we see, but bargaining that if we can just play D or Javy -> Corchiani things will change. Then its 12-0 (no baskets for through the first tv timeout). At this stage i’d say its not acceptance but rather comical disbelief. Then its 25-6; stage 2 and 4 together. If it were 25-0 then at least that would elicit a: “wowwww (mouth open). I can’t believe we are sooooo baaaaad.” Then you would at least start thinking of the records books and has a team EVER been held scoreless or maybe without a field goal in a half.
Then HOPE, in the form of getting simultaneously to stage 1 and 3 when Trevor hits a 3 and or T-Smith gets an Off-Reb for a putback, then its 28-19 and we go right back to stage 1, but we know its not gonna last, so at the same time, while NOT in stage 2 or 4, we are in denial, but have accepted that it can’t last.
Its complicated, painful and taxing to be a State fan since 1983.
DrBadgerPack - I actually think that’s a great game!
“I see no reason to believe that breaking in a new guy at Quarterback is going to go any better than breaking in a new guy at point guard went this winter.”
The big difference is that in the case of football, we have a staff that has demonstrated success in developing QBs. They actually Daniel Evans looking like Danny Wuerfel for 3 games. But you’re right, next year we could have a huge letdown here too. I mean, this year in b’ball was supposed to be great wasn’t it?
I’m surprised no one else has commented on how mad Sidney was last night. I was thinking to myself - this is a day late and a dollar short. Remember after Michigan State - excuses galore. Now, 6 games into this losing streak, we finally admit, “we’ve got huge problems.” Yet, I haven’t heard Sidney say one thing about what he needs to do differently.
^^^^As for the rest of the basketball season, how about acceptance with some fun? Perhaps a drink per turnover. Announcer says State needs a PG? Take a swig. Give up an offensive board? Put ‘er down. Opponent hits a three with the shot clock expiring? Imbibe. Camera pans to a constipated-looking Sidney Lowe on the sideline? Cuervo time!
I love it!! We can call it the “Watching the Wolfpack will weave you weeping and wishing for Whiskey” Game. It’ll be fun on Saturday during the Nationally televised Duke game. I’ll be sure to be on SFN during the game. Hell, I’m actually looking forward to the game now!!
I’m at the stage where I no longer believe there is any point in continuing to field a basketball team.
We’ve got three more years of being a disgrace and black mark on the ACC. Then we get to start from scratch. We’ll be in a much worse place than where we were when Les Robinson was here. This will be worse than when Valvano was fired.
This isn’t the lowest POSSIBLE point…but it’s the lowest in our history.
Disclaimer: Dr. BadgerPack assumes no liability for those who choose to play the aforementioned game for more than, oh, 5 minutes.
I think Sid was pretty clear last night that he doesn’t need to do anything differently. He has them prepared and good strategies in place but they don’t make shots or get rebounds. Even from my jaded view of Sid I couldn’t believe that he said that in public. And he wasn’t misquoted - I heard the clip.
It’s kind of like a teacher who gives a test and 90 percent of the class gets D’s and F’s. (I’m pretty sure we all endured at least one of those at State.) Did the students not try very hard? Are they all dumb? Or did the teacher fail to properly explain the subject matter in a way that prepared the students to get better marks on the test?
^From the Greesboro News-Record: I’m glad he said it in Public.
“”I thought our starters were just awful,” Lowe said. “I thought they were awful tonight.”
Consider this. The Wolfpack got a career-high 17 points from reserve guard Trevor Ferguson and another solid game from backup forward Tracy Smith (11 points), and State’s reserves outscored the FSU bench, 36-2. Do the math: That means the Seminoles’ starters outscored the State starters, 70-26.
Lowe was angry, and he wasn’t in the mood to take the heat for his players this time.
“We do everything we can to have these guys ready to play,” Lowe said of his coaching staff. “We can’t rebound. We can’t make the shots. We can’t get in front of a guy to defend him.”"
yes I can deal with the losing if we put forth effort. Ray Charles could see we have none. Sid accepts no responsibility whatever ,it is sad .
The RBC center will look empty or at least should be empty if this keeps up. We are and have great fans. We get no respect I will give up my tickets as long as sid is coaching.
Please stop running that excuse about losing recruits etc Sid got a bad break yes,but he also got a job out of the deal,I am sure his phone was not ringing off the hook. If you compare his body of work to what Derrick has done at Wagner and at Fordham ( He has inferior talent has a system and knows how to recruit)and if an alumn was the criteria it appears we got the wrong guard.
Studying for a test where I only need to pass to graduate > NC State Basketball. So when does base-, i mean foot-, i mean volley-, CROSS COUNTRY start!?
I think the first 12 minutes last night was the quietest I have ever heard the RBC Center for an ACC game. It was apparent to me that even the fans who bothered to show up had little hope or enthusiasm. The pre-game “clap over your head” silliness was even half-hearted at best. I think most folks were like me - got the LTR’s and paid for the tickets, you literally can’t give them away, not much else to do on a wed night, may as well go see what happens. And that’s the die-hards that even bothered to show up. When the most rabid fans have hit acceptance then you’ve got issues.
The handwriting was on the wall with the blowout at Michigan State. My season prediction immediately after that game was 6-10 in ACC. Next came the no show, mail it in, lack of effort crushing by the Ewes at Chapel Hill. For the “talent” this bunch is touted to have, I never seen such a continually poor display of basketball fundamentals as this bunch shows game after game. Blame is shared by the coaches and the players. Quotes from some frustrated coaches: Casey Stengel “does anyone know how to play this game” during the first season of the New York Mets. When asked about his team’s execution after another 1st season loss, Tampa Bay Bucs coach John McKay said “I’m in favor of it.” Humor is all Pack fans have left this year.
Wittenburg ktoh makes a valid point if thats the direction we must go ie former pack grad,plus he is known in the ny metro area and can recruit the top players from up there ones that would not consider a low major like fordham,although I have seen them play a few times and although it is not really saying much they would most likely kick our butts.
thank you MJ for apologizing to the fans. that means alot.
No to Whitt. Just like Sid, he is a guy who wouldn’t sniff an interview at an ACC school outside of the fact that he played here. While he does have a lot more relevant experience and is probably more qualified than Sid that doesn’t put him anywhere near the list of acceptable candidates. Good Lord if we’ve learned anything the last 2 years it should be that being a guard on a national championship team and being willing to take the job aren’t enough to ensure any success.
Par Shooter : I agree as well but in hindsight the lesser of two evils for sure!
IF for some reason Sid is not here in a couple of years, Whitt would NOT be the replacement, I’m sure. He was the ONE with the “pass” to Lo Charles, though…:)
I am resigned to the fact that we have some fans that are complete POS’. Some of the crap I read here are just stupid…got back to Reynolds? What possible relevance does that have? Are some of you in high school? And Noah, your complete debbie downer perspective is a self fulfilling prophecy when enough people engage in it. It is delusional to have unrealistically high expectations. It is equally delusional to have unrealistically low ones to and brother you have that in spades.
We suck becasue our talent sucks more than anything. Simple as that. Sid will either be able to bring in more talent or he won’t and that will be that. For those of you who think this is a highly talented team - if that were true some of these stiffs could get a rebound in 15 minutes with no coaching whatsoever if they had just a tad of athletism. We have no one on this team that can get their own shot or make a contested one much les dribble under any kind of pressure without losing the ball.
Its all about recruiting, simple as that. Changing coaches will not matter one iota unless we can get someone in here that can get talent in here immediately.
Why shouldn’t Whitt be the replacement? He has an excellent track record on the college level. I believe there was an excellent post on SFN a year ago which detailed his success.
^What a load of garbage. This reads as either (1) no NC State alumni allowed or (2) coaches from smaller schools need not apply. Who makes the cut for an “acceptable” candidate? Do you need 1 NC? Multiple “BCS” conference titles? Sheer name recognition?
That argument is exactly the same as: we had a recruit from _____ that bombed, ergo we should never recruit a player from _____ again.
All we’ve learned the last 1 1/2 years is if you don’t have a point guard, you’re going to suck. Well no freaking crap. I don’t think it’s a particularly solid notion that because 1 alumnus (currently) doesn’t cut the mustard, all alumni obviously would do the same thing. Oh, I’ve got it– Guard + Alumni + NC = Bad coach. Post hoc ergo propter hoc. (End rant)
Speaking of new talent:
http://northcarolinastate.scout.com/2/732774.html
How about: Wall, Brown, Favors, and Wood for 2009.
Now THAT would be a top 5 recruiting class - maybe #1!!
I think he would have been a better, or at least safer, hire (certainly in retrospect). Sid was an extremely high risk/reward hire. There was certainly a chance that his NBA background would help on the recruiting trail and that some of the things he’d picked up there would translate well to the ACC. Of course, there was a significant risk that he would have no idea how to evaluate 17 yr old kids during limited interaction, have no idea how to distribute scholarships and, worst of all, have no idea how to relate to 18-22 yr old kids and teach them how to function effectively as a team. So far we’ve seen much of the downside risk manifest itself with little of the upside. I do think his NBA background helped land JJ (maybe for the wrong reasons) and I think some our execution late last year was a result of his being able to call set plays when guys are playing w/ confidence and he has a capable floor leader.
Getting the attention of major programs is a fickle process. Coach K would not have sniffed the ACC, if not for the recommendation of Bobby Knight. Dean Smith was Johny on the spot, when McGuire stepped down after the recruiting scandals. Roy Williams got the Kansas job because of Dean’s recommendation. Lavin got the UCLA job because, he, like Dean just happened to be at the right place at the right time. Guillen, for example, had a stellar resume before taking over at UVa. Other than Jeff Capell, the rest of Coach K’s “kids” have fizzled as head coaches. Hard to say how prior experience or pedigree will translate to coaching in the ACC or elsewhere.
Whittenburg took over a 2 win team,at Fordham, and by year four they had a winning record overall and a winning conference record. I think that’s pretty good coaching.
It’ll be interesting to see how he does long term at Fordham. He’s having a down year for whatever reason this year, but so far he’s done better there than any other coach has done in a long time.
He’s as qualified to coach in the ACC as other folks, who landed head coaching jobs in the conference. The real issue is why was he so vigoroulsy ignored in the coaching search. Read somewhere he was too closely linked to Valvano and / or rubbed some folks at the WPC the wrong way 20 years ago.
I, too, reached acceptance. I didn’t even tune in. I didn’t bother. Why? Because the writing is on the wall. There is no reason, no rhyme, no nothing. It’s emptiness. A satisfying emptiness that only comes with acceptance: you will always be the bottom rung of Tobacco Road basketball; you will always underachieve; you will always be the red-headed step child.
But there’s a circular phenomena to the stages of grief that connects stage 5 to stage 1… and that is the dastardly emotion known as… hope… There’s always next year. There’s always another chance. And that, my friends, is the textbook definition of denial…
^^Personally, I think Sid will be here in 3 years and beyond, so it’s mute point to talk about Whitt IMO.
Let’s talk about the team, our disappointment, our stage of grief, etc., but I don’t think Sid is going anywhere for 2-3 years.
Unlike most I have seen both Wagner as well as Fordham play under Whitt., he knows what he is doing his teams press ,play solid d,have pt guards who run an OFFENSE,have set out of bounds plays,only problem is Fordham with academics etc should have gone patriot league instead of A10 but all in all they are competitive there game in and game out the only drawback for him is most top d1 prospects want to leave the city.
I was more enthusiastic about Whitt before his Fordham team flopped this year. He’s got a senior-laden squad of quality players for the A-10 (and for us, probably). But they’ve regressed when I expected they would contend for the A-10 title. It’s unfair to say it, but if Lowe bombs out I don’t think Whitt’s anywhere near next in line. Of course, we might be in a better situation right now if we’d picked Whitt over Lowe two years ago.
As for the magic 2009 recruiting class, with every brutal, pants-around-the-ankles loss, I think the odds of the home-run recruiting class get a little smaller.
“Lowe was angry, and he wasn’t in the mood to take the heat for his players this time.”
Prime, I’m hearing ya but let me tell you the next natural step:
players will come out (remember Capel?!) and start criticizing the coaches, then the entire thing will spiral off into a negative direction.
I agree with whoever said that Sid basically admitted that he and his staff had done nothing wrong.
Maybe Sid you should consider what you are asking verses what can be delivered.
^^^As for the magic 2009 recruiting class, with every brutal, pants-around-the-ankles loss, I think the odds of the home-run recruiting class get a little smaller.
Concur, but on the flip-side. 2009 could be the class that turns it AROUND, and some players thrive on that (see Beasley, Walker at Kansas State). And that’s probably what Sid is looking for…great players that have a HUGE desire to WIN…and turn a team around.
Acceptance. I rented a DVD and watched it last night instead of the game. When I saw the Sports page in the paper this morning I didn’t even grimace.
Next year will be the test for Sid & Co. If no effort continues, we need to look for a change.
I like to think that if the last twenty years or so has proven anything, it is that we as Wolfpack fans will never reach acceptance. I don’t confuse the amused disgust I feel with acceptance. That feeling began to really take hold in the BC game.
Acceptance would mean we have no RBC, and we would have been tickled pink to get swept by our rivals every year and make the NCAA tournament for the first weekend. We weren’t, and we never will be. At least until all of us who remember when our program was relevant have gone on.
Dr. Badgerpack, you beat me to the punchline. I was gonna comment if I played that drinking game I’d be in a pile on the floor before the first TV timeout.
There are plenty of guys at mid-majors or lesser teams in bcs conferences that would be acceptable candidates. Whitt doesn’t have a bad bio (I just read the entire thing on their official site) but I would contend that if his name was Dan Whitmore and he went to college at N. Texas St. then we would not give him a sniff. I don’t follow it closely so I don’t know what other big schools have had him on the interview list - maybe someone else does.
I really don’t want to run down Whitt and it looks like he is having a pretty good career. My point is that a guy’s qualifications are infinately more important than his name or where he played. The fact is that in his 5th year at his current stop his team has an overall losing record and is tied for 11th in a 14 team league. That’s just not good enough for me no matter what his name is.
K-State will be an interesting study. Take Beasley out of the equation and what would they be doing? Fast forward to next year and you’ll find out. Those kids were also recruited by a coach who is no longer there. I wouldn’t be too sure that this isn’t an aberration for K-State this year, versus the start of a more long-term revitalization.
I agree with StateRed. The talent here is lacking and JJ is our most talented center prospect since Chris fugging Washburn. T. Smith seems ready to explode as well. The got damn team exploded when the bald budha left and these are results of a proven shoddy system.
Sid’s proven he can coach in the little mini run late last year with the left over crap despite the constant dogging it from the so called stars. This year some major league wusses have been on the rag since they aren’t BMOC anymore.
As far as the negativity here, it’s way over the top for what amounts to a Todd Fuller type team. The buttholes around here are pooping all over everything. Some of you need to take one for the team and go ahead and pop that cyanide pill or else STFU.
Well I was at stage 5 a long time ago - approximately 15 years ago! I have been a State fan for about 15 years! We stink every year - sometimes not as much as others though. There have been some fun times - but we always end up disappointed. Good grief, how much can one school take? Break it down like this…You give that team to Roy or Coach K we have different results - PERIOD! Sidney can’t get it done - now it’s just a matter of how long it will take for everyone to see that. I’m just sayin…
You think Roy or K are going to come clamoring for this job? They are both in the conversation for the greatest college coach of ALL TIME. Nice analysis, try again.
Where do I stand with the Wolfpack? Hmmmmmmm…good question. Considering our nickname came from our football team’s defense hunting people down like a pack of wolves…I’m gonna say I’m a little disappointed. We’re not exactly living up to our moniker. If the players on the court would show more effort, the losing would be easier to take.
I will not be watching any more regular season basketball games this year (unless family or friends call and force me to watch the Duke game because we are givin’ them a game). lol
So is the life of a State fan. Always holding on to hope. I’ll watch the ACC tournament…mostly because I’ll be there.
Here’s the real deal. I’m not exactly High on Lowe anymore, but I sure as hell ain’t wishing for the days of Sendek…yet. I want Coach Lowe to stay for at least one more season to see if we progress.
To some this may sound crazy, but take a step back. Last season we were 5-11 in the ACC and most of the people here felt that was either about right or that we had accomplished more than we should have. We lost a four year starter at point guard and whether people will admit it or not…another important ingredient…the fiery and inspirational Brian Neiman. We brought in a recruiting class this year which included: Hickson, Smith, Johnson, Gonzalez, Degand, and Thomas. Degand and Thomas are injured. Johnson doesn’t appear to be panning out. Gonzalez and Smith have showed tremendous improvement, and Hickson is being talked about as a definite first rounder and possible lottery pick in the NBA draft. I think the original hype outweighed the ability of our players. Yes, we’ve underachieved, but one year of underachieving doesn’t warrant firing a coach or giving up on your team. Look at how many times in Dean Smith’s career he had the most talented team in the country…how many NCAA titles did he win? He underachieved plenty. So, let’s not jump to conclusions on Lowe and his staff just yet. Maybe its an anomaly.
Let’s look at the future…
I’ve talked to an ACC coach (not a head coach) recently who hinted that he thought we’d have some defections at the end of the year. He talked like worst case scenario we’d lose 5-6 players (maybe that wouldn’t be so bad). That makes you wonder what he’s heard. We know Grant is gone…so that is one. Chad Williams, a walk-on that most of us have never heard of, is a senior as well…so that makes two. Those two guys are guaranteed to be leaving. Hickson is a definite possibility considering that if he’s gonna be a lottery pick he’s going to be guaranteed to make about 5 million over two years. I’ll predict us losing Hickson…so that’s three. I would say we need to look at the rest of our roster for pro possibilities but we’ll leave Damien Wilkins…I mean Brandon Costner for later. Let’s look next at players who are likely to defect due to not being D-1 material or lack of playing time. I hate to say it, but Marques Johnson…he left Tennessee for playing time and came to State where it looks like if he stays…he’ll be our 4th string point guard behind Gonzalez/Degand, and Mays. I say MJ leaves to play at a mid-major so that makes four players gone. I think Ferguson hangs around, Harris stays, Fells can’t really leave, Gonzalez, Smith, Horner, and McCauley should all be back. We also have a guy named Clayton Smith on the roster who must be a walk-on and of course Johnny Thomas, and our recruits of Mays and Williams. This brings me back to Damien Wilkins oops I mean Brandon Costner. I think he thinks he’s better than he is (right now, a la Wilkins) and he packs up, leaves, and becomes the player we all knew he could be, and in the end…just like Wilkins it will work out for the best for both parties.
With all this being said…I like our future. We will have a likely opening day starting line-up that looks like this:
PG-Gonzalez/Degand/Mays
SG-Fells backed up by Ferguson/Thomas
SF-Williams/Horner Thomas could be used here as well
PF-Smith a rotation at PF would include Horner and Harris
C-McCauley Smith & McCauley would rotate here with Horner & Harris as substitutes.
Maybe we start two point guards and put Fells at small forward. Maybe Williams will suffice, or maybe Ferguson will start at the two with Fells again moving to small forward.
Looking at our roster it looks to me like we get rid of some dead weight. My only question is with depth at the bigs lookin’ a little thin…can we get Bartoz back?
I think Sid knows a lot about basketball and showed he can be a good coach, in game and getting a team ready to play.
The million dollar question is why haven’t we done better this year and can Sid learn from whatever mistakes he has made. From all the post game comments players have said about not executing or not being in it mentally, I think Sid is trying to get them ready, but for whatever reason he’s not able to get them to do it come game time.
As apathetic as I am right now, I am glad he came here, if for nothing else than to notch at least one win against Roy Williams and UNC, in the past 5 years.
Must admit I find it surprising the number of alumni/fans who didn’t watch the game last night.
The bigger question here is not what stage of grief we’re at w/ this season, but what stage of grief we’re at w/ Sidney Lowe. Sounds like there are folks are in all stages right now. As for me, I’m depressed.
Nobody in their right mind would ever think the Roy or K would come to State. C’mon, that is not what I meant by that comment. I simply meant that a good coach makes a difference and a great coach can turn a program around.
I think we should thank Coach Lowe for this season. Maybe it’ll help us get rid of Fowler.
Choppack was there enough heart last night? I became use to ncs bb during 60s 70s&80s so i lost hope after 2 yrs of les and have not seen anything since to bring hope for a return of ncs bb.
Acceptance I suppose. I look at it as “weave-and-heave” players with no experienced PG trying to transition into the offense we have craved for some time. With all due respects to Kay, Sid and Tom, I’m just totally exasperated with Wolfpack athletics - primarily the incompetence at the head of the department, and the lack of commitment (or follow-through on verbalized pseudo-commitments in that regard) from the chancellor and apparently the BOT. Maybe we should just leave D1 and find a good junior high league to play in.
“The million dollar question is why haven’t we done better this year and can Sid learn from whatever mistakes he has made. From all the post game comments players have said about not executing or not being in it mentally, I think Sid is trying to get them ready, but for whatever reason he’s not able to get them to do it come game time.”
Well, first off, you have to admit that you’re making a mistake. Sid hasn’t made that admission yet. One question I would have asked if I was Tony Haynes or a reporter to Sid is: “What have you learned this year about the differences between the college game and the pro game?”
Regarding in-game coaching ability…It’s probably the least valuable asset to have when it comes to college basketball. An excellent college coach needs to be a great salesman or a great teacher and a great motivator. In most games, you won’t be able to rely on your in-game adjustments or your ability to draw up that last play.
I think that what we’ve seen this year is that the team isn’t doing little things well. I don’t really buy that this team stinks because of a lack of good PG play. Yes, we’re missing a good PG, but what are the odds of having a great PG AND a great big man. One thing that’s obvious to me - perhaps we went overboard on the PGs. I don’t know why we didn’t go for a good shooter/scorer combo guard who can create his own shot and has good quickness. We might have that next year.
It’s easy to forget that we’ve lost 2 guys for the year who could have really helped us. One guy we don’t know about. We do know that Degand was doing a pretty good job.
One thing is certain, the staff and players have not responded well to adversity. They have wilted badly down the stretch. Leaders aren’t really judged by how they do when things are going well, but how they handle things when they start to break bad.
Your insinuation was that we can get a Roy or K to come here if we fire Lowe and hire the right guy. Maybe so, but you do realize they are the best 2 in the country right now and if their career’s follow the current arc, they might be the best 2 of all time. No point in comparing Sid to them.
Do I think he could have done better? Certainly. Biggest gripes I have are not signing Chris Warren (no one in the country including Andy Kennedy forsaw this from him) and not painstakingly managing fragile child-like egos of about 1/2 the team….WHICH K HAD PROBLEMS WITH LAST FREAKING YEAR. BOOM!
Just 2 quick comments on coaching searches…
First, should we go here again soon, I hope that we are as lucky as we were in getting TOB for football. By lucky, I don’t mean that TOB is a god, I mean that he was an established D1 winner that was ready to move and happy to be in Raleigh. TOB was kind of the football equivalent of what Texas got in Rick Barnes. The skills AND timing were right. No matter your prominence, you just cannot plan that kind of fortune. It was not Neinas that made that happen, it was TOB wanting a change and making a call.
Second, if we can’t have luck, may we at least have enough sense to recognize that we aren’t going to buy happiness. We are not a slam dunk for success. If you still think we are, I have to ask how you got onto this board. Thus, lucky match aside, the guys who already have it really good are not coming and we should expect to get our guy by doing the hard work of evaluating the fertile ground of mid-major HC’s. The fans need to grow up and accept this fact. The idea that we, the fans, are ready to win NOW does not translate to the rest of the world giving a hoot. Now, I’ll also add that a mid-major evaluation is work and it should be going on RIGHT NOW. That’s true regardless of what we think about Sid. This evaluation should ALWAYS be going on and should never be left for the last minute. By the time you are looking at an imminent hiring, there is just too much pressure and opportunity for outside factors (includes stupid fans) to stop a good marriage. Would Fowler be good at this pre-planning? Dicey to say the least but, there it is.
Good comments haze. If it happens it will be a mid major guy likely in his 30’s UNPROVEN AT THIS LEVEL. He will need, guess what??? 4 - 5 years.
Why oh, why some think it’s productive to dump on a beloved HERO here is a mystery to me. He HAS to have his alotted time that everyone in the country thinks is appropriate. AT A BARE BONES MINIMUM it’s 3 years. 4 is the industry standard and 5 is being slightly generous.
Acceptance/apathy/worry. I’m getting tired of Sid laying it on the players whether they deserve it or not. I’m past this season and beginning to worry about Sid a bit. And I’m bewildered by just how bad the Pack is.
Let’s change the subject, L. Brown is visiting NCSU this weekend. He’s ranked #17 in the ‘09 class. Him & Wall would end any backcourt issues we have instantly.
btw - We shouldn’t jump to conclusions either way. Last year Sid could do no wrong. This year we are already talking about replacements. How about giving the guy another year or two. Really, we are no position to say wether he will or will not succeed. We will just have to wait and see. Besides’s haven’t other great coaches started off with a rocky season or two. Let’s give him some time…or at least 2009.
yeah, it’s like groundhogs day, but “lets wait till next year”. I hate saying that.
Acceptance after Virginia game.
I agree packgrad93. I hope Wall and Brown go to the Dook game together, and I hope the RBC is “rockin’”. I think a victory would be too much to ask for, but let’s give ‘em a game. Brown mentioned in the article he’d like to play with Wall, but he did not know him extremely well. I’m not sure you could ask them to “end all our backcourt issues,” but with those two in ‘09, we would be on our way. If you added a top flight PF/C to that class (if we have another defection other than JJ), we would have a helluva class. Derrick, do you hear me talking to you?? Realistically, that could be a class of 3 Burger boys with Wall, Brown, and Favors, and a great all-around player, Wood to go along with that trio. Hell, we can dream….
AG - I agree in general w/ your post except for one statement:
“Last year Sid could do no wrong.’
That’s revisionist history. You’re forgetting the 11 games we lost in the ACC regular season. The horrid efforts vs. Duke, Clemson, BC, Miami, UMd and UVa (not the first game, but the second one)that cost us the possibility of an at-large bid. You’re forgetting the horrid performance vs. Cincy.
I thought Sid did an OK job last year. In my evaluation, I considered that Sid hadn’t coached the college kids before and that we ended on a positive note. When I saw the recruiting class he was bringing in, I felt even more comfortable.
But this year - I’ve just been very disappointed. And when I don’t hear a coach say, “We, as coaches, just need to go put our heads together and see what we can do to fix the problem” - I get really worried. He’s really not proposing to do anything different. Does that seem appropriate after a year like this one?
the ONLY way I see Sid getting out of this mess is telling these 3 ‘09 recruits to come here and start right away and they accept that.
Also, Favors is from Georgia and Brown is from Georgia…as a matter of fact, so is Noel Johnson…i’m just sayin…
During the UVA game, i found myself engaged during the first half. Drinking more heavily than usual. Then i found myself picking up one of the lady friend’s US magazines during the second half.
Last night, i had a choice: Bar #1 with friends, ESPNU (8) on the TV or a nice dinner next door….i chose dinner, TV-less. Figured i would enjoy the game blogging after-the-fact more than the actual game, i was right.
Later in the evening while watching the Dookie game, dreading the beat-down on Saturday, the final score came up. No reaction, just ordered another round.
Saturday i will probably watch again, more for the sheer fun of watching a bunch of white guys with crew cuts run and gun.
Farnold̵