Pack Pride’s morning webrun this morning contains that reads “Webrun: Pack Players have Quit” The highlighted quote of the entry originates from 99.9’s Dan Mason’s tell-it-like-it-is blog entry:
I never thought I’d be writing this. I figured there was no way Sidney Lowe would allow his team to go to Clemson and put up a goose egg like they did tonight against the Tigers…
…State Fan…..your team has quit on you. They have quit on their coach. They have quit on their university. They have simply quit on that celebrated uniform and you should be furious and saddened all at the same time. If you deny that, you are truly in denial.
I’m not convinced that the Wolfpack has ‘quit’ on the season nor am I convinced some guy I’ve never heard of named Dan Mason knows what he is talking about…but, the entry makes som interesting points. (expect for the childish, irrelevant and immature Herb Sendek remark at the very end). I particularly like the fact that Mason doesn’t let Athletics Director Lee Fowler just disappear into the distance with his undeserved contract extension raise.
Sidney Lowe and AD Lee Fowler simply can’t avoid the obvious.
Collectively, they have to publicly challenge this team and address its many issues, which could involve gently moving out some individuals from this group.
It may not be their style but at some point this group of individuals has to decide what their basketball futures will be, and the department as a whole has to come down with the hammer.
These young men have quit on the program and school that has afforded them the opportunity to attend school for free.
But I have a slightly different take on the obvious point that this team has “quit”. I submit to you that the real problem here is that this team never even began.
I’ve been holding off on writing this entry, but there is no point anymore. It is time to call it as we see it — I honestly believe that the members of this program could not have done less in the offseason to prepare for the 2007-2008 Basketball season and everyone involved in NC State Basketball from Lee Fowler to the student manager owes Wolfpack Nation a huge apology.
I said it multiple times in the early season and I don’t understand how so many people in the media and on the internet don’t grasp it as they continue to wait for a big change &/or predict a turnaround. Our problems are fundamentally systemic. There is NO SWITCH to flip here to get things fixed. Players don’t just have epiphanies and start playing exponentially better when your problems include significant breakdowns of fundamentals like not playing defense, not boxing out/rebounding, not being able to shoot, not having a point guard or an offensive system that flows. We SUCK at the basic things that a team must do to compete in COLLEGE basketball.
Folks, this meltdown isn’t happening in front of your eyes; this meltdown started BEFORE the season. Hell, this kind of decline pretty much had to start the minute last season was over! The conclusion is pretty obvious - These coaches and these players did not do *@^&# in the off-season. Can the team really quit if it never really started?
I am not just making this realization today - I am just finally choosing to share the observations of others with you (that were shared with me before the season even began).
At the start of this season I spoke with a few folks who are historically close to our program and two specifc comments in struck a chord with me at the time.
The first comment was related to conditioning (or the lack thereof). One gentleman shared that he “hadn’t seen bodies this out of shape on an NC State team since his relationship started with Coach Robinson almost 20 years ago.”
I knew what he meant the moment the team stepped on the court against William & Mary in November and it has manifested itself during the season. I have rarely seen a college team look more lethargic, slow, and disengaged than what we are witnessing this year. Heck, Brandon Costner was so obvioulsy out of shape that it led some people in our community to nickname him “porkchop” until we put the kabosh on the practice. I honestly think that a Herb Sendek all-star cast of Engin Atsur, Archie Miller, Ilian Evitmov, Luke Buffum and Steve Norton could use their ‘fleetness of foot’ to apply smothering defensively pressure the version of the 07-08 Wolfpack.
Now that NC State is experiencing a rash of strange ankle and knee injuries, people are taking note. At the half way mark of the season the out of shape Wolfpack has already been impaired by injuries to Farnold Degand, Courtney Fells, Dennis Horner, and Ben McCauley. A poster on Pack Pride’s message boards astutely commented today:
“If you look at the muscle definition on the UNC and Clemson players and then look at our guys, you will see the difference. Other teams pay the price in the weight room. We clearly do not. Our guys, with the exception of Hickson and Tracy, physically look like a pick up squad of off-work bankers.”
Of course it is taboo and politically incorrect to highlight the distratction that Sidney Lowe, Jr’s arrest understandably created for Coach Lowe in the off-season. But, in a results-oriented world the causes of the off-season laziness are irrelevant.
However, our coaching staff has not done themselves any favors in their presentation and reputation of excessive relaxation in and around town. Whether it is accurate or not, a perception exists with many at NC State and in Raleigh that there is a deficiency in commitment and work ethic within our administration. To be fair, how can you blame any coach for not working hard when their boss and the leader of our Athletics Director is known for his aversion to hard work, love of being on the golf course, and consistent practices of ‘working’ from his Lake Gaston retreat and the use of Wolfpack Club members’ mountain homes?
Remember I told you that I was concerned after speaking to a couple of heavy hitters BEFORE the season? Well, the second observation that concerned me came in a response to my inquiry about how the season was going to go for us. The Wolfpack Club member replied, “I certainly hope that this team is going to be good after [coaching staff names witheld] spent the whole summer playing golf and lobbying our adminstration for raises.”
I’m not telling you that it is true that this staff doesn’t work hard. I am not criticzing this staff for not working hard. I am telling you that others don’t believe that the staff works as hard as needed - and I am criticizing the physical condition of this year’s team and the results that they are generating. I don’t know how ANYONE could argue with this but I am sure someone will try.
Post script: Unfortunately there are a lot of people in the world who struggle with reading comprehension or simply choose to misinterpret things that are said (or not said). For those people I will state the previously unstated — NOT ONCE did we REMOTELY hint to a suggestion about any kind of rash ‘firing’ or unjustified job insecurity for Coach Lowe and his staff. Unlike many crazies out there, we are actually CONSISTENT in our timeframes to judge ALL coaches and, depending on different sets of circumstances, we believe that every coaching staff deserves anywhere between three and five years to implement their system and generate results.
Additionally, we are very disheartened by some of the comments of the remnants of the Herb Sendek Sunshine Squad (and mainstream media) related to this year’s performance. Do we REALLY have to remind the world that after four years of barely earning an NIT bid that Coach Sendek’s FIFTH year generated a meltdown of epic proportions? We suggest that for the obvious sake of consistency and common sense that the fools who continue to evoke Old Snaggletooth into this conversation keep their mouths shut until after the SIXTH year Coach Lowe’s regime. Otherwise you just embarass yourself with your hypocrisy.
I’d like to take issue with this entry, but I don’t see where I can. I’d also like to erase the memory of certain losses that the revelations here explain.
And while I’m wishing in vain, I’d like the Brooklyn Brewery to produce its Dark Chocolate Imperial Stout year-round instead of just a few weeks at Christmastime.
ONCE AGAIN, Dan Mason does his best Gregg Doyel impression.
This is not an excuse, there are none at this level, but could Lowe’s family issues maybe have derailed his focus and nullified any progress of this past off season?
I thought at first it was only Costner but after the injuries started coming on I really wondered about the conditioning as well. They say in triathlon “You can’t cheat a long course”. You do the training or you pay the price in the race. Same applies here and the lack of off-season conditioning is showing.
For the Herb portion of the article, you better not bet money in January on his team even if he is the PAC-10 for crying out loud. The flower in the desert WILL wilt.
At what point does it have to become possible that Lowe’s issues aren’t a distraction at all and he just isn’t a very good coach?
Likely not the first two games of any coach’s second ACC season, LRM.
I’d really love to close the book on ” ” but I haven’t seen his Sun Devils play this season. I did see them last season though, and they were not, I repeat were N O T, playing the same style of basketball that he refused to budge from in Raleigh. To me, that plainly states that ” ” has finally learned something, but only AFTER he left. I say Good for ” “, it was about time.
Now, let’s worry about WOLFPACK basketball.
Let me retract my last comment. It was based on Mason’s previous work.
After actually reading this time, his post and SFN’s critism are completely warranted.
Want to get even madder? Read the snips that Langston Wertz, Jr. wrote in the Charlotte Obs. this morning. Whoever he is??? Lurking onthe WolfWeb message boards to get info for his column and is surprised at the comments? I guess he gets all of his good date from IC(”the home of absolutely no human intelligence”).
Who is Langston Wertz, Jr? Must be one of Lennie’s illegitimate offspring! Maybe Kelly Tilghman could take him on in a dark alley with a short piece of rope!
Dan Mason and the rest of 99.9 are hacks. That station sucks (except they get great guests, i.e. Chuck Kaiton and John Forslund, and cover Hurricanes really well). The majority of their programming is unlistenable.
Does this sound like misdirected aggression to you? crap.
Great entry. At least now I have some more insight as to WHY this train wreck is happening right in front of my eyes.
I don’t think we have a chance at making it to the NIT this year. At least in the past we could almost guarantee that! Hey, didn’t they add a new tourney this year that picks after the NIT? Maybe we can buy our way into that one.
OH NO WE SUCK AGAIN!!!!
From what I understand the new tourney picks (or extends invitations) right after the NCAA tourney is done picking their teams. They said they would extend invitations to the 66th best team.
My personal theory all along has been that Sid is mentally checked out due to the problems with his son. I have tried through various channels to get my theory confirmed or denied, to no avail. It is sensitive, which is why I haven’t blogged about it.
Next year will be telling. This was Lowe’s first real offseason, and he had better learn some hard lessons and adjust quickly. It’s fair for us to expect a product that isn’t embarrassing.
My last word on Sendek - he has indeed abandoned the dreaded Princeton Offense. He needed a fresh start in order to scrap it, which is why I always maintained that Sendek to ASU was good for all parties involved. Funny how Sendek himself seems to have come to the same conclusion as the “lunatic fringe” as to the ability of that offense to win titles.
I’d really love to close the book on ” ” but I haven’t seen his Sun Devils play this season.
I saw ASU play in Maui. Not at all the same offense he was running in Raleigh.
I don’t know why, but I don’t feel like giving up on the season.
Somehow, somewhere, a sparkle of hope still remains. I’m crazy, I know, but I still think something good will come out of this season.
The only thing that I cannot understand, at all, are these folks who are ripping on Dan Mason for simply stating the truth. Who are you people and what could you possibly do for a living where you can have a complete lack of any kind of analytical skills and not get fired?
Unfortunately, this team while progressively worsening this year, was also terrible last year when Engin wasn’t around to properly coach the team. For Christ’s sake, offer him an assistant coaching job. IT CAN’T GET TOO MUCH WORSE.
At this point, the only thing that really hurts my feelings is that this season isn’t over yet. I would say that somebody somewhere in the NCSU athletic’s department should get ready to do some serious soul searching about what is happening here and be ready to make some hard decisions about where this program is headed. It appears as if our Captain is asleep at the helm and possibly from drinking too much Red Kool-Aid.
If lack of preparedness is the cause of this meltdown, this season is pretty much toast. What were they thinking?
Haven’t read all of the responses. Don’t need to. This whole thing boils down to leadership. The players are moldable young men that will respond to leadership and motivation. Even if Sidney had family issues during the summer, there is no excuse. The very, very experienced assistant coaches should have stepped up. Plain and simple, this team lacks leadership and I’m not sure there is leadership to be had.
Hey, Hey, Just what the PC group needs!!! A whole new post season BB tournament for those who couldn’t make the present watered down NCAA or NIT formats!
But hey, we may not play well, but people like us, and we deserve it.
“We suggest that for the obvious sake of consistency and common sense that the fools who continue to evoke Old Snaggletooth into this conversation keep their mouths shut until after the SIXTH year Coach Lowe’s regime. Otherwise you just embarass yourself with your hypocrisy”
I havn’t said anything about Herb vs Sid, but since you bring it up…. Sid should not take 6 years to get back to the NCAA’s like it took Herb. Sid has a much better foundation to build upon thx to Herb. He has NCAA talent on this year’s team. Losing Farnold hurt, but we still should be able to beat most ACC teams, especially at home. This Sat will be telling. I havn’t given up on this team or staff like some here.
“The only thing that I cannot understand, at all, are these folks who are ripping on Dan Mason for simply stating the truth. Who are you people and what could you possibly do for a living where you can have a complete lack of any kind of analytical skills and not get fired?”
I’m not ripping on Dan Mason for what he said about the pack (I actually didn’t click the link b/c I don’t want to support guys like him and as such only know what was posted here). I’m ripping Dan Mason for the rest of his programming at 99.9 The Crap. What do I do for a living where I can have a complete lack of any kind of analytical skills and not get fired, you ask? I’m the AD for NCSU.
“I’d like to take issue with this entry, but I don’t see where I can.”
I can…while this is good information to have, sometimes its not good to “air the dirty laundry” and keep things “within the family.” Perhaps this would have been better information to release at the end of the year?
^ Why?
And what ‘information’ is in here? It’s nothing more than some perspective shared by people with a bird’s eye view. They obviously have conversations with other people in the world than just us.
why wait to disclose it Clarksa?
is anyone transferring? please tell me a couple kids will transfer
“My personal theory all along has been that Sid is mentally checked out due to the problems with his son. I have tried through various channels to get my theory confirmed or denied, to no avail. It is sensitive, which is why I haven’t blogged about it.”
BJD95, I said something about that earlier in the thread and months back, but no one has commented on it to date. I hope that isn’t the case, but I have to believe that it is a major factor in Lowe’s overall thought processes right now. It’s not possible to feel totally confident in one area, when you’re responsible and have something that important going haywire elsewhere, and all of it bombarding your mind at once. I believe that you can pick up on a change in Lowe’s demeanor in his interviews, he is much more subdued and given to ‘coach speak’ these days.
Not only is Herb using a different offense now…he also adjusts to his team’s needs on defense as well. ASU plays a lot of zone as well. Amazing what learning on the job in the ACC for 10 years can do for a coach’s development. I’m glad that good folks at NC State could offer up our program for Herb’s growth.
solid criticism, frightening in the way the cold hard truth often is. i’m already thinking about next season.
LRM, that point may come, but not yet IMO. maybe end of next season though.
footnote: it shouldn’t take a basketball coach as long as it does a football coach to build his own team (due to the fact that basketball players these days are often fully capable as freshmen)
“Amazing what learning on the job in the ACC for 10 years can do for a coach’s development. I’m glad that good folks at NC State could offer up our program for Herb’s growth.”
we’re seeing it again. Let’s just hope we can reap the rewards of that on-the-job-training this time.
Great thoughts, and why I love reading this blog.
I said at the beginning of the year on another forum that Costner reminded me of a 2nd year Sean May: Pilsbury Doughboy. Except Sean gave 100% of what he had that year. Can’t say the same about Costner.
As for the rest of the post, I wish I could disagree with it, but I can’t.
It’s time to put the 7-8 best in-shape guys who give a damn on the floor every night. The sludgepiles sit at the end of the bench regardless of how many stars were in your scout.com profile.
“Not only is Herb using a different offense now…”
I typed a long post a week or so back, when ” “’s name started popping up over the place on SFN again, but I deleted it. About the fact that of all of those changes in philosophies, on both the offensive end and on defense as well, being sort of an admission of wrong doing. But, I figured, what the hell, if people are so blind that can’t see that it’s all different, what’s the point?
These so called reports kill me. When we wanted Herb out, they said we were crazy. When Sid had a better than thought year, they said we had the right man. Now, their back on Herb being the man. They are a joke!!!!!
“^ Why?
And what ‘information’ is in here? It’s nothing more than some perspective shared by people with a bird’s eye view. They obviously have conversations with other people in the world than just us.”
Why? Conversations between people take a long time to make the rounds while the internet “Portal to the Pack” has a much more immediate impact. Now, for the rest of the year, your going to have people (posters, bloggers, media) make reference to it and it will just further divide fans and continue to hurt the basketball program. As we can all see, the basketball program doesn’t need help with its self destruction this year.
All this speculating on “whats wrong with the team” just seems ludicrous. I think in the end we are all just trying to over analyze and over think this whole thing. Look I won’t disagree that this team was or was not in playing shape to begin the year, but I don’t think it answers the question as to why we are so bad. The answer to that question is easy. We are a bad team because we just have sub-par players. Please show me a case where 3/5 of these guys belong on an ACC floor. As much as I like some of our players, they just aren’t ACC material, plain and simple. I like Courtney Fells, but he wouldn’t start on any other team at the 2 guard. Not one of our point guards would see the floor on any ACC team. Ben, while I like him, would probably see 6 minutes a game on any other ACC team, or be relegated to a role player (we want him to be a leader, what does that say about our talent) Look I don’t blame these kids, they are trying and its not there fault that their talent level is sub-par to ACC standards. THIS TEAM ONLY WON 5 ACC GAMES LAST YEAR AND THAT WAS AGAINST ONLY 2 SCHOOLS, WAKE twice AND VT twice. We aren’t a bad team because of HEART or HUSSLE, or CONDIDITIONING, we are a sub par team (relegated to the middle of the pack) because thats the players we are playing with, plain and simple, no over analyzation and no racking our brains is going to change that fact.
I posted previously that we have player to player, coach to player, or coach to coach issues with this team. This entry makes it sound like we have all of the above. Sid better take charge and get people in line or show them the door if they resist or refuse to get in line because he will ultimately be held responsible if this continues. I am sure the AD will let Sid take the fall if he feels any pressure whatsoever.
“Want to get even madder? Read the snips that Langston Wertz, Jr. wrote in the Charlotte Obs. this morning. Whoever he is??? Lurking onthe WolfWeb message boards to get info for his column and is surprised at the comments? I guess he gets all of his good date from IC(”the home of absolutely no human intelligence”).”
Oh man I’d love to see this. I can’t find it on their website. Think you could find a link or possibly post that? The funny thing is on that board lately its been a bunch of sarcastic trolling posts just meant to get a rise out of people. What kind of idiot uses that for information?
State fans, I have Directv and the sports package which includes Fox Sports Arizona. Yes Herb has mixed up his defense and runs a lot of zone now, but in no way should people on here think (in case they don’t see the games themselves) that he runs a different style offense. What I have seen after watching 6 of his games so far this year is an exact replica of the offense he ran here at state his final few years. I actually argued with a buddy of mine about it who doesn’t see the games just looks at the stats and says they are shooting the same amount of 3s so it can’t be the same offense. Believe me, watch a game and you WILL see that Herb still runs the Princeton style offense. He team may choose not to shoot as many 3s but it is the same Exact bob and weave with back door cuts. They do spread the floor and allow their super freshman James Hardin drive one on one late in the game or when the clock is running out, but Herb did that on occasion here with Julius. Anyways, just wanted to clear that up. Check out a game and it will look really really familiar!
^^^ I meant to say my buddy says they ARE NOT shooting the same amount of 3s (ASU) as we did so it couldn’t be the same offense. SORRY
“I like Courtney Fells, but he wouldn’t start on any other team at the 2 guard.”
have to disagree with that one
“About the fact that of all of those changes in philosophies, on both the offensive end and on defense as well, being sort of an admission of wrong doing.”
wrong doing??????
AHHHH the frustration of it ALL. Will it ever stop?
I am not giving up on this team, or this season.
The post makes a lot of sense, because we just don’t look mentally or physically in the games I’ve seen. As others’ have pointed out, we do stand around a lot on offense - its eerily familiar to some pre-Lowe teams. If Lowe was distracted this summer, there are several other assistants who should’ve picked up the slack and got the guys working.
Just wants to make you scream. I wonder if State fans die, on average, earlier from all this stress, or if it makes us tougher - folks hanging on to see a team live up to expectations or dreams.
Thank goodness Ole Miss is playing lights out. Coach Andy Kennedy has some connection to the Wolfpack, though I can’t ever recall what it is. Y’all pull for us tonight again Florida!
Fells would definitely start on most (more than half) ACC teams at the 2 spot.
Kennedy played at State for Valvano. He transferred to UAB due to lack of playing time as I recall. He could shoot the three.
http://www.charlotte.com/sports/story/448198.html
Langston Wertz: a true journalist
• Two things surprised me during North Carolina’s blowout of N.C. State on Saturday:
1. Hearing play-by-play man Mike Patrick exclaim “Thank God” when N.C. State finally made a basket after a long first-half drought.
2. Reading the WolfWeb message board, where some N.C. State students and fans were leaving violent hate messages for Tar Heels players, plus racially and sexually insensitive remarks directed at Wolfpack players.
I also definitely agree that we DO NOT need to give Sid 6 years to get to the NCAA’s like we did Herb. The whole reason we had (majority of group…maybe not me, but I stick with the Pack as a whole) to getting a new coach was sure, Herb got us to the NCAAs consistently, but we wanted a coach to get us to the next level. If it takes Sid just as long as it took Herb just to get to the tourney, I am going to safely assume that he is NOT that coach that we were looking for to take us to the next level. Anyone agree with that?
As much as I hate to admit it, this entry is dead on balls accurate. I can’t argue with it one bit. What is difficult for me to swallow is that much of this team is made up of the same personnel that managed to finish last season strong despite an obvious lack of depth. How could a team that survived last year due to good conditioning come into this year in such poor shape? This begs the question, was Sid’s lack of attention in getting this team ready for the 07-08 season due to the distraction caused by his son’s situation, or was his son’s situation caused by a lack of attention from his father? Don’t get me wrong, I am 100% behind Sidney, he was a class mate of mine, but that does not mean that I am not scratching my head right now.
I posted earlier that I thought the lack of focus on the light, early season schedule was due to an emphasis on the conference schedule. Based upon recent performances, I must humbly admit that I may have been mistaken. I, as all NC State loyalists, want to put full faith and support in this team. I have not, nor will I give up on them, but it would seem that they, with a few possible exceptions, have given up on themselves and in so doing, on us as well.
At this point I believe that the only thing that could salvage some dignity from this season would be a complete reshuffling of the lineup. The possible few that I mentioned previously, need to be starting and playing the most minutes, they have earned it. The results certainly could not be any worse then what we have seen to date, and at least we would get to applaud the effort. Any opportunity to cheer is better then what we are suffering through right now.
As far as the mention of Herb, I wish him the best, but he is no longer here and therefore not any concern of ours, so why waste the time, energy, and space discussing him?
For now, I will keep on clicking Ads, supporting and suffering this team, and enjoying the good comentary here at SFN.
Everyone needs to get off the Lowe has got go rant. The incoming class when he started was killed by LF and this admin letting incoming players out of their contract with no penalty. In addition, Simmons goes pro and we were left with a handful of starters and a bunch of walk-ons. Coach pulled last years class out of his ass and we were all shocked that he was able to get such quality class, especially Hickson.
This year not only do we have a new mix of players, we have had a rash of injuries that is killing any chance of continuity - esp. at the PG position. Guys keep on bringing up Lowe not being able to motivate players - in the words of Mike Ditka: “You can’t motivate players they can only motivate themselves.”
Lineup changes maybe should have come a little quicker this season, but I see two very good reasons why they may not have:
1) Coming from the NBA Lowe comes from a league where you play your best talent or lose - period. I think Lowe has maybe been a little too focused on keeping the best talent on the floor vs. keeping the best effort on the floor.
2) Changes in the PG position had a signifcant impact on continuity and he probably felt that messing with rest of the lineup would set things back even farther.
All that being said there are a couple of players that need to have a “come to Jesus” moment and step up. And some of the younger players need to grow up quickly or they may be sacrificing a scholarship in the coming years.
Stay behind this team and behind the coach before all the negativity becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
yes packgrad93, I said “wrong doing??????”
Triadwolf, I disagree. I think coaches can definitely motivate players. If you have played organized sports before you will know this is the reason for the coaches’ pre-game pep talks. Why else would they do it????? To motivate their players. After writing this, maybe you are right…the coaches can’t motivate the players completely by themselves, but they damn sure can help!
You guys think Fells would start on any other ACC team? I am talking other than Wake or VT or any other bottom dweller. You want to compete for the 5th to 3rd slot then Fells ain’t the answer.
So then you have to ask yourself does Fells start in front of:
Carolina: Wayne Ellington
Duke: Demarcuss Nelson(put him up against any of Dukes guards)
Clemson: KC Rivers or Terrance Oglesby
Maryland: Greivis Vasquez or Eric Hayes
just as examples. Like I said I like fells, just not as a 31 min starter in the ACC.
I am not picking on Fells. I think you basically take all of our players down the line, and you would be hard pressed to start them in front of other guys from other ACC in their perspective positions.
wbnation, I would take fells starting over KC Rivers or Oglesby any day. Rivers is pretty close to fells, but no where near as athletic (rebounding and defense when fells wants to play defense). Rivers also has been inconsistent in his scoring this year much like fells. I just like Fells’ potential than Rivers. And come on, you putting Oglesby up there is like saying you would rather have Adam Harrington (sp?) back on our team instead of fells. Oglesby CAN shoots lights out, but he can also go 1-10 from the 3 point line (like he has done this year). Also, Oglesby cannot finish near the basket and cannot play defense on opponents playing his same position…he is too small.
I would also take Fells over Vasquez or Eric Hayes based on his athletic ability compared to theirs. Again, they are all inconsistent at times and neither Vasquez or Hayes has really helped Maryland to a great first part of the season.
Call me crazy, but I do believe that Lowe was also counting pretty heavily on Trevor Ferguson, coming in and contributing as a lights out shooter as well a good passer, from the 2 guard spot. Ferguson isn’t the first player that has impressed his coaches and teammates on the practice court, but hasn’t panned out during ballgames. Every program has had those players at one time or another.
Jnew: Point taken, but in all the years I played sports the “rah-rah” stuff lasted about 5 minutes for me. For me it was always about me wanting to be better than the guy across from me, not the coach lighting some fire under my ass. The coaches prepared me the best they could and tried to put me in a position to be successful.
Now I do agree that coaches need to help players find what inspires them to play their best, but ultimately in comes down to players. How many times have we said about a potential star in some sport: What a waste of talent - If I had half that talent I’d be an all-pro.
There are many more stories of players who do not come close to playing to their potential than the other way around. Even Valvano had his share of flops - but he had enough other weapons at his disposal to make up for it.
I said this in the other post, and will say it again. DONT GIVE UP, DONT EVER GIVE UP!!!!! I am terribly disappointed but we need to band together and support this team. If we give up on them, they surely will give up. Self fulfilling prophecy is a very real thing.
Show up and scream and support our team, our Wolfpack. Saturday starts a new season, and while we have issues, we can choose to give up or we can choose to fight.
To quote one of my favorite movie lines, imagine John Blutarski aka Bluto screaming to a bunch of shcoked frat boys about double secret probation - “Give up? Give up? Did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor” I beleive it was Otter who said “the Germans??” and Boone responded with “dont stop him now, he’s on a roll”. Next thing you know, the frat is following Bluto out the door, screaming and unified for the next battle.
So where are you Wolfpackers? Are you with us? LET’S GO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I always appreciate Jeff’s opinion, so thanks for sharing. Those aren’t easy opinions to share because of the way many people react to comments they don’t like to hear or believe.
In terms of learning on the job, we are definitely back in that situation with Sidney Lowe. That is quite obvious. The hope for most people was that the college experience of our staff would make up for the learning curve of Sidney on the college level.
It is very easy to see that Brandon Costner and Ben McCauley aren’t the same players they were last year. I have been wondering all season if there was some type of event that took place that has caused our players to take steps backwards. We experienced several of those during the Sendek era that always seemed to cause chemistry injuries that led to underachieving teams.
In this case, Jeff is probably right that it wasn’t a specific event, but simply a lack of work ethic inside the program in the off-season.
triadwolf, I see your points as well. Wherever the motivation comes from it sounds like you are as frustrated as I am concerning our “lack of” motivation and inspiration. You made a great point: “For me it was always about me wanting to be better than the guy across from me”. I agree and that has always been a part of my thinking as well, so it just baffles me that these guys don’t think that or don’t care about that. That is why I am saying Sid needs to get these kids motivated to think like that or like you said, find what inspires these kids to think like that.
Man, I keep wanting to tell myself we are ok, we had two bad road losses but until we lose 7 or 8 in the ACC we still have a chance. But in the back of my mind I am thinking….what have I seen that makes me think we can turn this thing around????
Mike, you have motivated me to get into the game big time Saturday night! We will see after that!
I would argue that Courtney would start at the 3 for maybe half the teams and that is his natural position. He’s a bad fit at 2 b/c of his suspect handle and lack of quickness. He has plenty of size and strength for a 3 and would still mostly play on the wing. An ideal 2 would be much quicker than Fells (which is why he’s constantly blown by) and could help out with ballhandling - especially with a weak pg. I think that Courtney’s playing out of position (out of necessity) is really making our weaknesses at pg much more glaring.
That we are even considering running him at pg just makes me shake my head. And yet, why not try something to keep MG and Javi from hurting the team.
“For me it was always about me wanting to be better than the guy across from me, not the coach lighting some fire under my ass.”
Like Lucy says to Linus… THAT’S IT!!!
Thanks Sweetjumper - that is what had me confused because here they they talk about him being a UAB guy (in alabama) but I thought he’d played at State. Appreciate getting me right on that.
I don’t know how any player can tolerate someone out playing them in any facet of the game. It is going to happen, sure. There is always someone out there with a better all-around game, but I don’t see anyone can play on without even trying to adjust, or at least FOULING. It’s like, OK, he just blew by me for a layup, or he out just muscled me for another rebound, but I’m going to go back and play exactly the same way the next time down the court. I do not get how an entire lineup, with a few exceptions granted, can lose sight and get into a mindset like that.
I used to harp on ” ” for not letting the players be, or think for themselves. I mean, I don’t see any type of underlying or overly confusing “system” of play being taught right now, but I’m not so sure we aren’t suffering from another bunch of players who are waiting for their coach to tell them everything to do, instead of just playing the game.
“but I do believe that Lowe was also counting pretty heavily on Trevor Ferguson, coming in and contributing as a lights out shooter as well a good passer, from the 2 guard spot.”
don’t think so. he saw Trev last season during games too. Trev will be a decent back-up his whole time at NCSU.
This team needs a couple of true “gym rats” at the guard positions. Hell, maybe just one. Some of our bigs seem to have that mentality at times, but we need a guard or two to dive across the floor, leap into to bleachers, etc. prime the pump. I think there are a couple of guys with that potential - maybe it is a confidence issue.
“I also definitely agree that we DO NOT need to give Sid 6 years to get to the NCAA’s like we did Herb.”
No one said to give Sid 6 years. What WAS said was that no Herb supporter should complain if Sid does not get us to the NCAA until year 6.
Otherwise they are being hypocrites (added by me).
^Please refer to preseason and early season comments by the Head Coach.
The situation Sid inherited is far different than the one Mr. Sendek did. I don’t think there is any question that Sidney will not see the tourney if it takes us another five to get back. It’s a different ball game and set of circumstances today than it was 10 years ago.
For Noah and others that are already bailing on Lowe maybe you ought to look back at Dick Sheridan’s 2nd year. We went 3-8 after having a winning season in his first year. What if we had bailed on Sheridan in his second season?
Same thing with Bo Rein, he was 3-8 in his first year but did something no one else has done since. Win the ACC.
It’s way too early to dump Lowe unless next year ends up looking like this year.
And some of you keep harping on Chris Wright sitting on G-town’s bench as if he would be our saviour if he was in Raleigh. A freshman is a freshman is a freshman. I don’t care what Marbury and others did. It is very rare for a freshman to come in and make a significant impact.
If Wright was a Marbury he wouldn’t be on G’town’s bench, he would be starting.
.
Rick,
I was a Herb supporter but I also realized that we may have peaked with him. With that said, I was fine with having someone else come in here to take us to the next level. That is what everyone wanted right???? So that is why I (as a former Herb supporter) feel that we should not wait until year 6 to see if Sid can get us to the tourney. I am not being a hypocrite by saying that am I? I jumped on board with getting a new coach as long as he takes us to the “next level”. And a coach who simply takes 6 years to get us back to where Herb took us doesn’t seem like a coach that will take us to the next level…does it?
“No one said to give Sid 6 years. What WAS said was that no Herb supporter should complain if Sid does not get us to the NCAA until year 6.
Otherwise they are being hypocrites (added by me).”
like I said earlier, they came into entirely different situations. It shouldn’t take Sid 6 years to get a program at least back to where it was before he got here. There is plenty of talent to at least make the NCAA field. That should be a minimum expectation from now on.
“I don’t care what Marbury and others did. It is very rare for a freshman to come in and make a significant impact.”
Stitt- Clemson
Smith - Duke
I don’t think you will win that argument. Happens all the time. Good players are good players, and right now we aint got any.
Packgrad93, I understand where you are coming from. And actually I am STILL a Herb supporter AT ASU. Don’t get me wrong, State first and foremost, but I do find myself still cheering for the guy. He seemed to be a good guy and an overall good judge of character. Reading the WRAL article from Mason where he said that maybe some people should leave the program or be removed from the program made me think of Adam Harrington (sp?) and Damion Wilkins leaving State while Herb was here. Don’t know the details on how or whose choice it was for them to leave, but 1 bad apple spoils the bunch, so maybe we should remove the bad apples from our team even if it means removing some talent. I don’t want to speculate who the bad apples are, but something or someone (or two) is clearly causing some chemistry issues on this team.
I’m not disagreeing with anything written here, but I think it is hard to measure the impact of not having a battle-tested, confident, leader-type point guard.
I think Marquez and Javi are playing scared and overwhelmed. They are rushing and trying not to screw up, and its messing with how they play. During what I watched of the UNC and Clemson games, it didn’t look like (for the most part) we were taking bad shots, just missing things we should make. It looks like players are trying too hard, and they are clearly frustrated (as we are).
I’m not saying there are not other issues. I haven’t noticed the conditioning thing, and I haven’t seen anything directly on the court to suggest that players don’t like each other.
“Call me crazy, but I do believe that Lowe was also counting pretty heavily on Trevor Ferguson, coming in and contributing as a lights out shooter as well a good passer, from the 2 guard spot”
If that’s true than not only will I call you crazy, but I’ll Sidney Lowe a f-ing idiot.
And yeah, I know who gave him a scholarship.
Whoops…packgrad93 got there before me.
Wulfpack….what I was referring to were the comments from many who think that Wright was equivalent to Marbury and other PG who start as freshan. Wright has potential but if he WAS a Marbury then he would be starting instead of on the bench.
Err ..freshman
“I am criticizing the physical condition of this year’s team and the results that they are generating. I don’t know how ANYONE could argue with this but I am sure someone will try.”
I’ll give it a try. The players have stated that Lowe runs them more than Sendeck ever did, so how can they be suddently underconditioned? Guys like McCauley, Costner, Horner, Ferguson, and even Grant are oversized and slow for their positions, not underconditioned.
Compare those players to guys like Hickson, Smith, Thomas, Degand, Gonzales, Marques, Williams, Mays, and even Herb’s Fells and the athletic difference is quite clear. I don’t see how anyone could argue these guys are underconditioned.
Costner, “the big lazy”, is the only guy you can seriously argue is underconditioned. He has put on over 15 pounds of flub every season since he got here. But who’s fault is that really? I understand people are frustrated and want answers, but you can’t blame everything on Lowe and that was really reaching.
“like I said earlier, they came into entirely different situations. It shouldn’t take Sid 6 years to get a program at least back to where it was before he got here. There is plenty of talent to at least make the NCAA field. That should be a minimum expectation from now on.”
So you define 6 cholarship players as plenty of talent? Take off your Sundevil yellow glasses.
Talentwise the program was marginally better when Herb left.
Having said that, I do have concerns about the program, but no more than I had with you knwo who.
Some random thoughts and questions …
(1) Did Hickson arrive on campus this Summer or just for the Fall semester? I originally thought the former but based on his conditioning at the start of the season assumed the latter. He may have muscles but he without a doubt was not in physical condition to play a full college game at the outset of the season.
(2) Who is your S&C coach for hoops? Even if Lowe was on Mars on summer, the staff should have a conditioning program in place. I thought seeing State up close last Saturday that UNC’s women’s team has more muscle tone and muscle mass than a lot of the State players.
(3) Was Costner injured this summer (I thought maybe something minor)? That could explain how he fell off the conditioning wagon, though it doesn’t explain why he never got back on.
I have thought that Costner and Hickson have been playing themselves into game shape throughout the season and expected both to improve as the mid-point of the season arrived. Unfortunately for them, while both seem to be in significantly better shape, they are probably just now in preseason condition while their opponents are in mid-season form.
In the NBA, the coaches don’t have the same role monitoring the off-season work-out regimen of players; the teams have conditioning specialists, a lot of the guys have personal trainers, etc. and guys who show up out of shape just don’t make it. Coaches live in far-away places in the off-season and call their players from time to time, but there is a disconnect between coaches, on the one hand, and players, OTOH, during the off-season.
I think Lowe has tried to apply his NBA experience in a lot of ways to college players and it has not worked out very well thus far. That includes the excuse-making (tired legs, rusty from layoff, short turn-around, etc.), apparent favoritism (guys like Costner continuing to play despite terrible efforts) and perhaps extends to failure to baby-sit his players the way most programs frankly do.
I recall an interview with Skip Prosser (RIP) a few years ago in which the WFNZ resident idiot asked if Skip was going to take a nice long vacation at the end of the season. Skip laughed out loud, making a quip to the effect “sure, we just drop the kids off outside the locker-room, wish’em good luck with classes, see ya next fall!’ (the interview was a riot). Perhaps Lowe has tried to treat his players like NBA pros and not babysit/micromanage them, but that is just not how modern college hoops programs are run. I don’t know what Coach V’s off-season conditioning program looked like when Lowe was at State, but I guaranty it was nothing like what major programs do now (just b/c of changes in the technology of sports conditioning). Go back and watch early 80s games on ESPNClassic. Those guys were freaking tooth picks compared to what you see on the floor now.
Also, as to the PG conundrum, the fact of the matter is that Lowe & Towe and company coached Degand and Johnson for a full year before either took the floor for State and neither has seemed particularly fundamentally sound. I can understand problems for Gonzalez a lot better, as a true freshman, but Degand and Johnson are more head-scratchers to me. It is one thing to have limited talent, but just about anyone with a D-1 scholarship (at guard especially) ought to be able to be fundamentally sound. I have also thought that State’s big men are not fundamentally sound, particularly in their defensive foot-work and rebounding, but at least you can say the staff has zero direct experience in the post. At PG, it is hard to come up with an excuse.
Did anyone notice during last nights game, and forgive me for not remembering the precise circumstances, on one particular play Javi had a lapse in judgement offensively. As our players headed back to defend Gavin pulled Javi aside and gave him a little reminder of what to do in that situation. The look on Javi’s face was one of determination, but it was also easy to see that he knew he was playing overmatched and overwhelmed. What Gavin did, though, was display some senior leadership on the floor at that moment. These young players will get it eventually. Freshman will make mistakes and very costly ones. The fact is that they do not have a grasp on playing at the collegiate level yet. Even the stud freshman will have their off-nights. We are a very young team. We are going to lose alot of basketball games. Just because you are an AllAmerican, a Top 50, 100, 150 coming out of high school doesn’t guarantee that you will achieve instant success. Players like JJ Hickson are rare and even he has much to learn about the game of basketball. I have hope for this program, but not for this season.
“So you define 6 cholarship players as plenty of talent? Take off your Sundevil yellow glasses.
Talentwise the program was marginally better when Herb left.”
Oh good lord…what a load of bullcrap.
When Herb Sendek arrived, our center was a JUCO small forward named Danny Strong. We had a grand total of TWO legitimate ACC players in Osh Benjamin and CC Harrison (and neither of those were exactly stars at the time). The previous staff hadn’t even STARTED recruiting the junior class.
When Sidney Lowe came in, the team was coming off five straight NCAA appearances and had four starters that were all ranked in the top-100 as high school seniors. Costner was a Parade All-american. Grant was a top-75 guy. McCauley was a top-100 guy. Fells was a top-50 guy.
Don’t even TRY to compare the two. Yeah, I get it. You didn’t Herb Sendek. Fine. That’s a perfectly valid opinion. You hoped we’d hire a better coach than Sendek. Again…perfectly valid and reasonable hope.
But DO NOT…ever….evereverever try and compare the shape of the program that Sendek walked away from and the shape of the program that Les f-ing Robinson walked away from.
If you do it, you don’t make a point…you just make yourself look like a fool and you just waste everyone’s time.
“So you define 6 cholarship players as plenty of talent? Take off your Sundevil yellow glasses.
Talentwise the program was marginally better when Herb left.”
Oh good lord…what a load of bullcrap.
When Herb Sendek arrived, our center was a JUCO small forward named Danny Strong. We had a grand total of TWO legitimate ACC players in Osh Benjamin and CC Harrison (and neither of those were exactly stars at the time). The previous staff hadn’t even STARTED recruiting the junior class.
When Sidney Lowe came in, the team was coming off five straight NCAA appearances and had four starters that were all ranked in the top-100 as high school seniors. Costner was a Parade All-american. Grant was a top-75 guy. McCauley was a top-100 guy. Fells was a top-50 guy.
Don’t even TRY to compare the two. Yeah, I get it. You didn’t Herb Sendek. Fine. That’s a perfectly valid opinion. You hoped we’d hire a better coach than Sendek. Again…perfectly valid and reasonable hope.
But DO NOT…ever….evereverever try and compare the shape of the program that Sendek walked away from and the shape of the program that Les f-ing Robinson walked away from.
If you do it, you don’t make a point…you just make yourself look like a fool and you just waste everyone’s time.
“So you define 6 cholarship players as plenty of talent? Take off your Sundevil yellow glasses.
Talentwise the program was marginally better when Herb left.”
Oh good lord…what a load of bullcrap.
When Herb Sendek arrived, our center was a JUCO small forward named Danny Strong. We had a grand total of TWO legitimate ACC players in Osh Benjamin and CC Harrison (and neither of those were exactly stars at the time). The previous staff hadn’t even STARTED recruiting the junior class.
When Sidney Lowe came in, the team was coming off five straight NCAA appearances and had four starters that were all ranked in the top-100 as high school seniors. Costner was a Parade All-american. Grant was a top-75 guy. McCauley was a top-100 guy. Fells was a top-50 guy.
Don’t even TRY to compare the two. Yeah, I get it. You didn’t Herb Sendek. Fine. That’s a perfectly valid opinion. You hoped we’d hire a better coach than Sendek. Again…perfectly valid and reasonable hope.
But DO NOT…ever….evereverever try and compare the shape of the program that Sendek walked away from and the shape of the program that Les f-ing Robinson walked away from.
If you do it, you don’t make a point…you just make yourself look like a fool and you just waste everyone’s time.
Well damn, I felt strongly about it…but I don’t think it needed to post three times.
from above….”but I’m not so sure we aren’t suffering from another bunch of players who are waiting for their coach to tell them everything to do, instead of just playing the game.”
I agree, there seems to be NO floor leadership.
As far as Wright goes, the REASON he is not starting is that Georgetown is loaded with good guards — Sapp and Wallace. He would be starting at ALOT of other schools — especially here at State. No one said he was Marbury, either, as far as I know.
I’ll step right on up and make a very legimate comparison for ya.
They both SUCK.
Honestly children, Les R is gone, and I know you hate it but ” ” is gone too. So seriously, what does how one coach started versus the other, really have to do with anything right now?
^Thanks Papa Fred. Now can I go outside and play?
You are right it really doesn’t matter. All water under the bridge.
“But DO NOT…ever….evereverever try and compare the shape of the program that Sendek walked away from and the shape of the program that Les f-ing Robinson walked away from.
If you do it, you don’t make a point…you just make yourself look like a fool and you just waste everyone’s time.”
+1
“Whoops…packgrad93 got there before me.”
two peas in a pod
Noah, I enjoy reading your posts. The only thing that would make this a little more entertaining is if someone would have used T.O.’s breakdown regarding our concerns of coach Lowe or any of the players at this time…..
“you can say that if you want, but it isn’t fair! That’s my Coach (crying) That’s my Coach!”
Well, call me crazy then.
The reason I say that is I either read or heard when Sidney Lowe was asked to evaluate this team early on, he listed the players and said, on two different ocassions, that Ferguson was really shooting and playing well during practice.
Well, if a coach says it in a press conference, obviously it is the pure, undiluted, unadulterated truth.
“Honestly children, Les R is gone, and I know you hate it but ” ” is gone too. So seriously, what does how one coach started versus the other, really have to do with anything right now?”
1) No one here is complaining about Herb Sendek leaving. Even though I didn’t hate him anywhere near as much as most people, I thought his departure made a lot of sense and was a good opportunity both for him and the Wolfpack program
2) That he isn’t here doesn’t mean that anyone needs to engage in some sort of mangled historical revisionism where we try to pretend that Robinson and Sendek were equal failures.
3) This is not a binary situation. There are more possible outcomes than “good” or “bad.” There are shades of grey.
I’m fine with Sendek choosing ASU over us. I’m fine with us having to look for a new coach. That doesn’t mean that I think we ought to hire some chump loser from the NBA to drive us off a bridge. And when that chump loser DOES drive us off the bridge, I’m not going to pretend that it was:
– someone else’s fault;
– our ultimate destination anyway; or
– Where we wanted to be in the first place.
http://www.statefansnation.com/index.php/archives/2006/04/06/because-were-nc-state/
Everytime I get really down, I have to go back and read this.
Heres an idea: List where you think our players stand in comparison to the rest of the conference. Rate there ability as to position and where you actually think they stand, not where your expectations are, but by the numbers that are being put up this year.
Point Guard: 12 out of 12, last. Take any other point guard in the league
2 guard: 5th or 6th out of 12.
Small Forward: 3 or 4 out of 12.
Powerforward: 6 to 8 out of 12.
Center: 4 to 5 out of 12.
I just see the talent not being there. We have at best average players playing on a team with above average expectations. Its not conditioning, its that we don’t stand up per man with most of the top teams in the league and until we do we can moan and cry about conditioning, leadership, coaching etc. and it won’t make bit of difference on the court.
Disappointing, disconcerting, etc., BUT we appear to be better than Kentucky. Honestly, I’m not sure we are, but our record sure is. Ahhh, the theory of relativity!
Good thing I like to drink.
Pete Gaudet, Matt Doherty, and Sidney.
NCSU has joined the club.