It’s been a week now since NC State was thoroughly embarassed by Michigan State on a night where the Wolfpack looked lethargic, played little defense and continued to exhibit NO desire to rebound. (I would typically link to the entries related to the loss but they are so ugly that I just can’t).
As I previoulsy mentioned in another entry, at the beginning of the season I projected State to be 4-2 at this point in the season. Despite State’s 4-2 start coupled with a solid #51 RPI while playing the 33rd most difficult schedule in the country, there are A LOT of reasons why Wolfpack fans are a little on edge at the moment.
The ‘macro’ issues of team chemistry, rebounding, defense, effort/energy and free throw shooting have been highlighted in previous entries and comments. This entry from the always good Section Six breaks down some individual statistics worth noting and touches on some of the team chemistry issues:
In many cases, when there’s a player with a usage around 30%, it’s indicative of a good player playing on a team without much of a supporting cast–Bo McCalebb, for instance. But JJ Hickson has plenty of help. Maybe it’s a little bit of “look, shiny new power forward!” syndrome, but more likely, if the chemistry issues are as significant as they appear to be, it’s an indication that the rest of the team can’t figure out how to play with him. Or that when they get him the ball in the post, they give up on the possession. Could they really resent him that much?
I don’t think JJ is being selfish, and his turnovers have inflated his usage to a certain extent, but if Lowe doesn’t think the offense is broken simply because Costner and McCauley have been terrible, the alternative conclusion is that it’s broken because it’s become a single-minded exercise in getting JJ Hickson the basketball. Regardless, there is no fluidity in what we are doing right now. Everyone looks like a square peg attempting to fit into a round hole.
Lowe’s tried to smooth things over by putting McCauley back into the starting lineup, giving him more time with Costner, and bringing Hickson off the bench. But while Ben’s minutes have increased, his productivity hasn’t. And we can’t afford to play Hickson any less–not only is he productive offensively, he’s a shot blocking threat at the defensive end and the team’s best rebounder. So everybody’s gonna have to figure their shit out while JJ is on the floor. There is no other option. We don’t have the luxury of attempting to work the situation out in practice while integrating him into games gradually. He’s far too talented for that, and as a team we are too weak where he is strong.
Despite all of these larger issues that have been discussed through the first month of the 2007-08 season, I have one tee-tiny-little reason why the severity of the beat down in East Lansing is so bothersome - I’m not convinced that the Spartans are really THAT good.
Last night, Michigan State barely survived an upset by Bradley. Ok, that’s just one game. And, don’t forget that this team had UCLA on the ropes before losing to the Bruins by five.
But, take a look at MSU’s schedule for a moment. Need I remind you that the Spartans lost an exhibition game AT HOME to a Div III opponent? This team barely beat Oakland by 4 points and squeaked by a 5-3 Missouri team (currently #79 in the RPI) by only two. I give Michigan State all the credit in the world for PERFORMING like a Top 10 / Top 15 team thusfar this season. But, when I see that the Spartans struggled against some of these lesser teams and defeated NC State by a margin in the same ballpark as Chicago State and Jacksonville State I can’t help but worry about where our boys’ development currently stands.
You have to keep the faith in Sid, but at this point, we dont look good at all. i am very worried. if we dont lay a beat down on ECU this Saturday, we are in trouble.
Just to clarify…has nothing to do with Sid. Just having a ‘fan conversation’
The situation is certainly worth having some concern about. This is the first year we’ve had a lot of talent in a while. It is El Sid’s first time coaching this situation. Like anything else there is going to be a learning curve. El Sid is a new college coach and it takes time to figure out how to win. No one likes to lose, especially looking the way we looked against MSU. Coach needs to start with the basics, making sure players hustle on every play, a la Horner. If they don’t hustle then they should sit out. Based on the huge range of statements here as to what our problem is….I think it is still somewhat of a mystery why things are happening the way they are. I belive a lot of it is player attitude though…evidenced by lack of hustle on plays. Once that is squared away I think the team will come together and be more viable. As a general rule though, I am sure our expectations were probably a little high for this season. We should tone them down a LITTLE and see how the situation pans out. This team can still do great things and in fact is likely to do so down the stretch. The potential exists and by the end of the season we should start getting a feel of what coach Lowe is and is not capable of.
while playing the 33rd most difficult schedule in the country,
Thanks for including that rare piece of good news about State’s OOC scheduling. We will have to see how much effect that Old Spice Tournament has on SOS at the end of the year….but it doesn’t take much to see that this year’s tournament beats the BCA Classic by a mile.
This is the first year we’ve had a lot of talent in a while.
Not exactly accurate. The 05/06 team had plenty of talent…it just didn’t show by the end of the season.
We are talented, but our talent is very frontcourt-heavy. In guard-dominated college basketball, we may eventually realize that our ceiling as a basketball team this year is less than the sum of our collective parts would seemingly indicate due to most of that assembled talent being in the post and on the wings rather than in the backcourt.
Of our top-7 impact players, Hickson, McCauley, Costner and Horner are all clearly at the 3, 4 or 5. Fells and Grant sometimes get shoehorned into the 2 but are really more of a 3 in a 2’s body. Fells’ shooting, albeit streaky, and perimeter defense do allow him to play effectively for stretches at the 2 but his somewhat lackluster ballhandling and inconsistent shot do not translate well to full-time ‘2′ duty.
That leaves Degand as the only true guard in our top 7. Most top-15 teams have either an aggressive, breakdown PG or a deadeye 3-point SG (or hopefully both) in their backcourt. We have neither.
I hope Sid is taking an NBA mentality for the season, using the first half for development while not putting much emphasis on winning. It is only his second season in college coaching and it would make sense for him to fall back on what he knows best. In The Association, intensity doesn’t pick up until after the all-star break and the first half is primarily glorified scrimmages. The teams that take the first-half seriously usually end up with 60 wins and high seeds, but that doesn’t mean much in May.
I hope that come January it will begin to ratchet up toward March. Unlike the NBA, there is a get-out-of-jail-free card in that if it all goes bad, a team can win their conference tournament and make the NCAAs.
This is sort of a “young” team, and it is every inexperienced where it matters — at guard. I can understand bringing the guards along slowly so they don’t crumble, leaving this team to 6-10 in the ACC and wondering what-if.
“The 05/06 team had plenty of talent…it just didn’t show by the end of the season.”
That team made it to the 2nd round of the NCAAs with Bethel, Atsur, Cam, Grant, IE, & Ced. This year’s team has more potential IMO.
I think we saw the best of MSU and the worst of NC State on that particular night.
“I hope Sid is taking an NBA mentality for the season, using the first half for development while not putting much emphasis on winning.”
I hope not. NCAA seeding is VERY important.
“This is sort of a “young” team, and it is every inexperienced where it matters — at guard.”
Only inexperienced at PG & DeGand is playing ok. The vets need to step it up.
Well the 1st two posts express exactly why I was NOT in favor of hiring ‘in the family’. Now I’m not saying that Sid won’t be a great coach, I’m just saying that no one is immune from some ‘back seat coaching’. If Sid was responsible for the strong finish at the end of last year then why wouldn’t he have something to do with the slow start this season?
I have been very concerned that in every game we’ve played we’ve had a decided height advantage but our guys stand flatfooted while a 6′2″ guard knifes in and skies for the board.
The team we have with a large front line relies on drawing fouls (making FT’s) and getting boards.
We aren’t doing either.
I assume by the use of the cliche “need to step it up” that you mean play well consistently. But in their history, they have never played well consistently. If past performance is indication of future performance, consistent, reliable, strong play from our veterans isn’t going to happen.
As for the guard play, “ok” isn’t going to cut it in the ACC, “ok” guard play gets you an NIT invite. One need look no further than Virginia and Virginia Tech last year when they had strong seasons based almost solely on strong guard play. Unless you have Eric Gordon or OJ Mayo, being experienced at SG and not PG is a recipe for disaster.
Although I will say that we are shooting the ball better under Sid than we EVER did under Herb (those patented scoring droughts).
“Although I will say that we are shooting the ball better under Sid than we EVER did under Herb (those patented scoring droughts).”
did you watch the last game?
Sid knows the business of creating the best match-ups for his teams. That is what an assistant coach in the NBA does. Sid just needs to learn his team and that will take some time. I’m not concerned with the Michigan State game. As it has been said before 4 games in 7 days including road trips to Florida and Michigan at the beginning of the season is insane. Don’t forget State just won a tournament prior to the MSU game.
“But in their history, they have never played well consistently. ”
Fells, Grant, Ben & Costner all played well last season. Degand hasn’t been our problem this year.
Last year’s team was the best shooting NC State team since the Valvano years. I am certain it is the full record that he was referring to, not the one game.
I’m not scared for the season yet. Were it not for the tournament runs last season, our thinking about this season would be about where it is (the NO loss was worse than the MSU loss IMO). We do have reason to be concerned, but it’s early and we have seen these players working together at high levels before, so we don’t have hope in things unseen.
Another thing that I noticed last year is that margins are greater under Sid — win or lose. Lowe’s Pack pulls the trigger faster and is capable of blowing teams out some nights (as Virginia Tech), but those greater possession numbers also lead to bigger losing margins when the shots aren’t falling — as well as faster deficit overcoming.
I would like to see a statistic concerning when JJ gets the ball on the block. Percentage of times he shoots, turns it over, and passes out of the post.
Here’s what I envision the percentages look like in my head, 67%, 33% and 0%.
Packgrad/CedarWolf, did you see my post in one of the other sections? ASU led 21-14 the other night, then went the last 8:33 without a point. To start the second half, they scored 1 basket in the first 11 minutes. Add it up, this is one basket in essentially a half of basketball.
All teams will go through a drought every now and then, but this was routine for us under the old regime. This is still happening out west in the desert.
Let’s see how they take this on Saturday when they travel to the lovely gangstaville. If we have a rough match against ECU (Ranked last in C-USA)… then we may want to start worrying. There can be no excuses against them since it’s only a 90 mile trip, and they’ve had a week to rest and learn their mistakes. I was going to go watch the game but I got suckered into working on saturday… although now I’m thinking its for the best because I would HATE to be in that town if the pirates upset us.
Don’t forget what we looked like through Jan. last year. Sid was using the same guys, minus Atsur, but the results were not good. It has to be harder to define roles and take more time to develop chemistry WITH talent as your options are so much more open. When you have 4 guys and a body, you are limited. However, at the end of the year last year 5 healthy ballplayers put a real display. It will take time and we may not get the results we want this year. Sid is learning as well.
I didn’t play a lot of basketball so my terminology might be off a little but here’s my observation:
JJ is a post up forward.
Costner and McCauley play the high low offense.
You need an excellent PG or good passing guards to take advantage of a post up forward/center. The high low created it’s own easy baskets by entering the ball at the foul line first.
It’s probably going to take a while to meld those two types of big men. Also, the process could take longer due to our guards being inexperienced.
The reason JJ has a usage around 30% is really very simple. He’s the only one who can hit the broad side of a barn shooting right now. The current shooting percentages for the guys who should be our major scorers are:
Costner: .333
McCauley: .370
Fells: .40
Horner: .40
Grant: .413
Hickson: .729
Given those numbers, you’d be crazy not to feed JJ as much as possible.
“All teams will go through a drought every now and then, but this was routine for us under the old regime.”
happens to every team period. each fan base thinks their team/coach goes thru them a lot more than others.
One of our PG’s are going to have to step it up no doubt, I’m thinking it’ll be Johnson. Partially because of what I saw in the red/white game, but also because Degand hasn’t shown us anything so far other than not turning it over, and Javi needs another year to develop… so… If Johnson doesn’t step it up, then we’re gonna be in trouble come ACC time.
Sort of off topic, but does any one know what type of offense is going to be “Sid’s offense”? I’ve looked at the past two seasons as him doing the best with the parts available. I can’t really get too much of feel from the recruits he’s brought in. Has he said anything? Does anyone have any inside scoop? Guard or front court oriented?
“Last year’s team was the best shooting NC State team since the Valvano years. I am certain it is the full record that he was referring to, not the one game.”
The 2006 team shot the ball better, if only barely: 55.0 eFG% to 54.9% in 2007.
And Herb’s teams–the ones from ‘02 on, anyway–were routinely among the best shooting teams in the nation.
just to play a bit of devil’s advocate, zahadum, that kind of insane disparity over the course of more than a single game is really, really weird … it suggests (though I don’t have time to do any analysis) that Hickson is getting a lot better shot opportunities than his fellow post players … this could be entirely due to Hickson’s hard work versus not so much effort from McCauley and Costner, but, anecdotally, it has not appeared to me that State runs plays for anyone in the low post except Hickson when Hickson is in the game and still doesn’t do it very often when he is out …
Part of the issue for Costner is shot selection; he has taken 48 shots (Hickson has taken 59), but 22 are three point attempts, so he’s only taken 26 2FGA to Hickson’s 59 2 FGA (Hickson has not attempted a three). Worse, Costner is only 9-26 for TWO POINT SHOTS. That is terrible for a big man, but what I do not know is how many of those are 10-15 foot jumpers and how many are genuine post-up opportunities?
Akula, when I did those statistics last spring, I did straight-up FG%, not weighted to three-point shooting.
Edit to add, that since I looked up the Stats, State’s top 4 scorers after Hickson (Costner, Grant, Fells, Degand — the other starters) have combined for only 94 2FGA (Hickson alone has 59 in that time) — they have 76 3FGA in addition.
What’s more, those four are only shooting 43-94 2FGA; not horrid but not good — it really indicates that either (i) no one but Hickson can hit layups or (ii) State is getting very few high percentage/point-blank opportunities via fast break, offensive rebounds (*ahem*) or otherwise for anyone but Hickson.
Some good points nycfan. Although I don’t really think of feeding a post man on the blocks as ‘running a play’ for him. It would, however, be interesting to see figures on the number of touches on offense for each of our big guys.
Something else that goes along with what you said; last year one of the staples of our offense was the high pick and roll with either Atsur and Costner or Atsur and McCauley. Since the opposition had to respect Engin’s shooting, that resulted in a lot of open looks for Brandon and Ben.
By contrast, Degand is, of course, not nearly the shooter Engin was, and I haven’t seen us run that all year. It might be worth trying the pick and roll with Grant or Fells/Costner or McCauley some to see if we can get them some better shot opportunities.
Also, for Brandon and Ben, can’t help but repeat what every coach I ever had harped on; when your shots not falling, either get a offensive rebound and stickback or run the floor like a madman for an easy layup to get yourself going.
“we have seen these players working together at high levels before, so we don’t have hope in things unseen.”
we havn’t seen this team work TOGETHER at a high level yet.
Nycfan,
See we’re thinking alike in our last paragraphs. Great minds and all that, eh?
You guys make some valid points, however, the fact that four players have a combined 94 two point field goal attempts and on one player has 59 shows a pretty large disparity between the guys. I think part of what this illustrates is Hickson’s lack of kicking the ball out to the open man. He gets the ball, gets double or triple teamed, puts his head down, and goes to the hoop and throws up a shot. Sometimes it works…sometimes it doesn’t. I think he needs to stand up straight and see where the double/triple team is coming from and hit that open man. Our field goal percentage would be much higher if we got more open shots. What he needs to understand is that by doing this…if we hit open shots…it will force teams to come out of the double and triple teams on him and he will be able to show that when he’s on the block, in a one on one situation…he’s damnear unstoppable.
I’m not a post player, but in order to find my shot when I was off I’d try and take the ball to the rack and maybe get a foul. It’s amazing how easy it is to find the rim when you’ve got ten seconds to focus on it and shoot a free-throw.
I have just come to the conclusion that these guys aren’t goind to be very good at rebounding and defense. Therefore, if we are clicking offensively during the game, we will win…if not, we will lose.
JimV… although i see your point about JJ, its hard to tell a man who is shooting 72% while the rest of the team is shooting 30%, to KICK the ball out when he gets it in the post. and i agree, it might help get the rest of the team going, but it is a tough position to be in for JJ. he feels he can get the job done (and so far he has been able to get it done) and that the rest of his team cant (and thus far they have been unable to get it done). so its hard to fault him, he wants to win, and he feels the best way to win is to pound it in when he gets it… and up to now. i find it hard to prove him wrong
Disclaimer: I wish for once, the fans of the CURRENT program could have a discussion without someone making everything revolve around the old coach and old team somehow.
That said, I am scared about this team as well, but I don’t think using the transitive property with Mich State makes me more or less so. Mich State has a lot of the same problems we do and has tended to play to their competition, like we often do, so far. They played great vs UCLA and have kind of toyed around with everyone else except us. I think they were ready to make a statement vs the ACC against us and played one of their best games of the year. On our part, we went down and took care of business following our screwing around with UNO, and, then, sadly, partied afterward and acted as if that was enough for now. They tried to take the easy road vs Mich State by firing up 3’s, and, when that didn’t work, they packed it in. Only JJ acted liked he really wanted to play on either side of the court that night.
The thing that is making all of this extra tough for Pack fans right now is/was our own overblown expectations prior to the season (some of the players, it seems, read all that too and thought it would be a 4-loss cakewalk).
Welcome to reality. COLLEGE BASKETBALL IS A GUARDS’ GAME!! You can have all of the great frontcourt players you want, but you are not going to be a great college team unless you have great guards. Just look at Kansas State!! Michael Beasley is as good as it gets, but K-State’s guards don’t play anywhere close to his level and he and the overall team will suffer plenty of inconsistency and unbelieveable defeats as a result.
Degand is improving, but he is playing in only his first handful of college games and is no better than an ok point guard right now, and, SORRY, you aren’t going to be a great college team and consistent winner in college basketball until you have a better than average point guard with experience leading your team!! With less guys to work into the rotation than Mich State (just JJ vs a whole host of guys for them), if WE had Drew Neitzel running the show, WE would be the top 10 team.
On the other side of the backcourt, as has been wisely pointed out, you do have a guy, Courtney Fells, who—when he shows up—makes us a very dangerous team. But, he only shows up half the time.
How anyone expects this team to be great or a consistent winner with, so far, an average at best point guard and a shooting guard who only shows up half the time despite enormous potential, I will never know. Until you have more than a 1-.5 backcourt going against the standard 2 person backcourt, it won’t matter how great the front court or freshman center is on his own. We will win some games like Nova, but we will also lay plenty of eggs when shooting guard is not on…Unfortunately, we don’t have anyone else who comes close to being able to “get hot” and free up our strength in the frontcourt.
To close this out with the normal Herb rotation, Herb was never a real contender and was always a disappointer because he never brought in a great point guard or great “get hot” and “shoot you down dagger” shooting guard. Valvano was great because he started with a McD backcourt with a great point guard, Lowe, and a “shoot you down dagger” shooting guard in Whittenberg. Valvano finished with a a great point guard, Corch, and a “shoot you down dagger” shooting guard in Monroe. In between, Valvano had longtime pro guards like Spud, Nate, and Vinnie. Until Lowe gets that type of talent on the floor—IN THE BACKCOURT—we will see more of the Herb disappointment in our lives than the excitement we knew under Jimmy V. It is that simple.
Not this year, no, which appears to be one reason for this thread.
Guards brought in by Herb:
Miller (top50)
Harrington (top20)
M. Williams (top40)
Wilkins(top10)
Crawford(top60)
Scooter(top25)
Hodge(top10)
Atsur
Bethel
Fells(top30)
Good talent, but not NBA calibre talent, which is needed to win championships.
“Not this year, no”
can’t compare to last year since the team is very different. Still working on how to play with JJ.
Looks like Lowe knows our guard situation.
(Scout.com)
2008 recruits
CJ Williams - 6′4/200 F/G - 3 star (Verbal)
Julius Mays - 6′2/170 SG - 3 star (Verbal)
2009 recruits
John Wall - 6-3/170 PG - 5 star (Medium interest)
Lorenzo Brown - 6′5-175 SG - 5 star (High interest)
2010 recruits
Reggie Bullock - SG 6′5 185 - 5 star (Medium interest)
Tyler Thorton - 6′1/170 PG - 4 star (Medium interest)
Overall in 08/09 we’re looking at more guards than fowards/centers, especially the higher rated ones.
Also, to add to above, if one of our PG’s doesn’t show up this year, we’re still with the same ones next year unless Mays is a combo guard (Not sure). So, here’s hoping they all improve steadily.
Allow me to digress right off the bat on “ShootingGuard’s” last point and ask someone to explain to me how in the world, if backcourts are so important, we never even made an ACC final with the long-deified backcourt combination of Corch and Monroe (coached for 3 years by also-deified Coach V). I will point out that they had a very solid supporting cast playing with them. Players such as Brown and Gugliotta, and, for one year, Shack. Along with solid ACC roll players like Howard and Lester. I’m sure I’m leaving other good players out. That all-world-guard-combo-led-team only had one decent post-season showing out of 7 tournaments, which was their sophmore year when we made the sweet 16 and got screwed against G’town. Other than that those teams with fantastic backcourts acheived NOTHING in the NCAAs. Aside from never even making an ACC final, allow me to recount the NCAA failures. Freshman year — loss to Murray State in round 1. Junior year — NCAA probation. Senior year — blowout loss in round of 32 to OSU. So, out of 7 tournaments they played, I would say only one of the 7 yeilded an acceptable result. How is this possible if guards are the key to everything in basketball and they were so good?
Now, on to the current team. I find it amazing that people point to Degand as some sort of reason we aren’t as good as some thought we would be. Degand is one of the two players (Hickson being the other), who has actually played pretty well pretty consistently. It is our absurdly underachieving frontcourt that has screwed the pooch. I don’t even see how that is debatable.
Cedar, are you straining to be argumentative? We certainly can compare players’ performances from year to year. It’s fair to make allowances for different circumstances, but let’s not act as if Costner and McCauley should go from all-ACC tournament selections to bit players just because there’s a second McD All-American in the frontcourt.
Heck, I was pointing to their emergence late last season as a reason not to despair six games into this season.
“Guards brought in by Herb:
Miller (top50)
Harrington (top20)
M. Williams (top40)
Wilkins(top10)
Crawford(top60)
Scooter(top25)
Hodge(top10)
Atsur
Bethel
Fells(top30)
Good talent, but not NBA calibre talent, which is needed to win championships.”
Not a potent ball distributor or consistently deadeye shooter among them (other than Arch, who God love him was a defensively disadvantaged midget). And the two highest-rated (Wilkins and Hodge) weren’t really guards - they were small forwards that we tried to run the offense through. Neither could shoot worth a damn, and although Hodge could get to the rack with the best of them, neither were drive-and-kick players, either.
We very clearly need to continue to improve the talent level on team in the backcourt if we want to become nationally relevant again.
just a note but i believe it was said that you need a point guard to be successful…not that having a point guard will make you successful.
I posted this earlier and some asked my calculation. I think the players must produce to play. Like it or not the player producing is Hickson. Over the last 3 games my rankings are:
Rating = Points per minute +(2*(Assists per minute + Rebounds per minute + Steals per minute)+ Blocks per minute - Turnovers per minute
Name Rating Minutes Played
Hickson 0.82 83.00
Grant 0.66 82.00
Fells 0.54 94.00
Degand 0.53 99.00
McCauley 0.51 80.00
Horner 0.43 64.00
Costner 0.43 70.00
Gonzalez 0.02 18.00
Correction Turnovers are weighted *-2. The assumption is that an assist, rebound, steal or turnover makes it possible to score or deny 2 points. I didn’t weigh blocks as high because sometimes it gets you out of rebounding position.
Here’s a bit I got from SectionSix
http://sectionsix.blogspot.com/2007/12/expanded-individual-numbers.html
http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=61
“… So I tend to focus on the guys that have a high usage and a high turnover rate. These are the players that tend to be overrated. The most obvious player to pick on at this early stage is NC State’s Brandon Costner. Costner was one of the ten best freshmen in the nation last season. But he’s off to a miserable start this season with a 25.0 percent turnover rate (up from 20.4 percent last season) while racking up a 25.4 percent usage. Additionally, though, he’s shooting just 40.6 percent (eFG), so his turnover issues are not his most glaring problem so far. Fortunately for State, freshman J.J. Hickson has been as good as advertised (if a little turnover-prone himself), and has picked up some of the slack resulting from Costner’s slump.”
I think Costner is exhibiting classic sophomore-slump right now, and that this will pass.
The lack of any production and leadership at the point will ultimately doom this team this year. I really fear that this could be an “Amato-type” basketball year in which we fail miserably to meet our preseason projections.
^ Again, I find the criticism and proactive blaming of Degand ludicrous given the way he has played as compared to the rest of the team (except Hickson).
The bigs need to get back to basics…..when a shot goes up, get in the freaking paint and put a butt on somebody!! BOX THE HELL OUT!!! Right now, the entire team is simply watching the ball to see if the shot is gonna drop. Be a player!! WE will take care of the spectating.
Degand is better off than everyone else because he hasn’t made a lot of mistakes. The problem with him is that he doesn’t make a lot of assists either… which means that he’s not running the offense, which is what our team needs at this point in time. So he’s not doing anything really negative, but he’s also not doing anything really positive.
GF makes some nice points that are hard to argue.
WHile DeGand is not yet up to speed he certainly is playing better than most on the team.. JJ and Dennis are the others. DeGand is leading the team in assists and is not turning the ball over a much as our forwards. I think coach wants our O to run through the bigs as much as the PGs and therefore the PG on THIS year’s team will not likely have as many assists as those previously deified.
This team does have me worried, but I think they will be an NCAA team (bubblish perhaps) but will be a beast by the end of the season.
GF is playing with matches on the fire/ice conclusions..HA!!
Agree with the Smiths fan - on our entire roster, exactly 2 players have met or exceeded reasonable pre-season expectations: Hickson and Degand. When I went to the R/W game and was impressed with both of them, I thought we were gold. I didn’t expect the rest of the team to go into the crapper.
First post here people. I’m going to keep it brief. We’re are such a new looking team Just learning to play together. Lots of talent but it’s not all about that. It’s going take a while.
Let’s just see if the intensity it there. I think it will be by the end of the season. Right now it’s not. Especially on defense.
I have to comment about Degand. He’s very green. Still learning the offense. We spend a lot of the first part of the shot clock doing nothing. Then with ten seconds left… he drives and looks to dish or shoot. That will have to change if we are going to be a team that competes. We need to be more aggresive during the early part of the shot clock.
IMO I think we’ll progress. I have faith in Sid. You can just feel that it may be a long regular season but this team will be ready come tournament time.
Go Pack!
What ever happened to drive and dish…the pick and roll or the pick and pop? Seems to me that these particular basic plays have been relatively non-existant early this season. If these VERY BASIC plays are regularly used, like last year, a flow will develop and success will follow.
“Again, I find the criticism and proactive blaming of Degand ludicrous given the way he has played as compared to the rest of the team (except Hickson).”
I couldn’t agree more!!!
Even if Costner and McCauley aren’t getting the ball as much as last year, and even when they do they aren’t producing consistently anyway, those two players should still be hustling their asses off and working hard everywhere else, especially on the boards. Being confused about your role with a new line up is one thing, but just idly watching and not hustling off the ball, or even trying to get into the flow unless they have the basketball in their hands is very disappointing to me.
Those two guys make up two thirds of a BIG frontcourt, but they are getting outplayed and manhandled by guys a half foot shorter than they are.
Degand’s stats aren’t overwhelming, but they are consistent and positive. To this point neither McCauley or Costner can say that.
Can you say one and done?
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=3141615&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab1pos3
^Thanks for the link, but I hate that crap, and right now more than ever. That kind of press isn’t going to help us one bit in the team cohesion department.
^
Girlfriend, if you don’t think the last coach to win a title of any kind at State, a pg who left with over 1000 assists as the ACC leader, and the all-time leading scorer at State do not deserve to be deified a little bit…you must worship a golden calf or a cactus or something.
For the record, I was not cutting on Degand—I was cutting on State fans who somehow did not expect that there would be major growing pains replacing Atsur and working in a guy who had never played a minute of college ball before a few games ago and who, through no fault of his own at this point, lacks the leadership respect and jumpshot that Atsur had. It is not a cut on Degand to tell the truth and say that he is just ok at this point. Yes, he is improving, and, yes, I like his effort A LOT better than several of the other guys so far, but, to date, he will not give us an edge over too many point guards in the ACC. If he could, that would be a big plus, but he can’t right now. If that changes as he continues to improve, GREAT. If not, that is no fault of his own. He seems to be trying his best, and I don’t blame him for not being Tony Parker. Sid asked him to join up when we were desperate, and I am glad he came to help.
If you don’t think college is a guard’s game, you are pretty foolish. JJ is great, but he can’t pass to himself. He can’t set himself up. He can’t free himself up from double and triple teams by making outside shots for himself.
It’s too early to panic…but thus far this is what I’ve seen:
We aren’t getting easy baskets.
We aren’t rebounding OR creating TO’s - that’s pretty much a recipe for disaster.
The JJ factor has hurt our chemistry. It’s not his fault, but roles are changig and need to change more. Everyone - including JJ - has to improve.
I was hoping that the effort and intensity we saw in the ACC tourney and the NIT run would carry over to this year. It hasn’t so far.
The best news is that we can improve and become a very good team.
question regarding the team’s defensive play -
does anyone know how many charges we’ve drawn this season? i’ve got season tickets and usually record and re-watch the tv games and i can’t think of one instance when we’ve stepped in and tried to draw a charge against dribble penetration or opposing fast breaks
case in point - the Fells intentional foul against Bo M. from UNO … if courtney at least attempts to draw a charge there then at worst it’s a blocking foul or possible 3-pt. play opportunity and they don’t get the ball back (but i digress)
anyway, if anyone can think of any time we’ve tried to take a charge please let me know
i think this could possibly help some of the defensive woes … time to let go of last year’s “loose man-to-man to stay out of foul trouble” defense
^
Girlfriend, I failed to mention how ridiculous it was for you to cut down Corch and Monroe’s accomplishments while glossing over the fact that they had to play through the absolute worst time in State basketball history. You think they might have been able to achieve more in their upper class years if it weren’t for the scandal? Gee, do you think they might have been able to accomplish something their junior year IF they had been allowed to play in the NCAA’s? Was that their fault? Do you think they might have had a better run in their senior year had they not had a coaching change and been short on players? Hmmm. Freshman year, early NCAA exit—not totally unheard of. Sophomore year, one call away from Final 8 and who knows what could have happened there. Junior year, oops, not allowed to play in NCAA’s. Senior year, suffer through nightmare Valvano exit and Les arrival, still make NCAA’s and win a game. Not bad. Just think how bad that team would have been without great guards!
It’s hard not to wonder how things would be different if Chris Wright had decided to run with the pack.
“I think part of what this illustrates is Hickson’s lack of kicking the ball out to the open man. He gets the ball, gets double or triple teamed, puts his head down, and goes to the hoop and throws up a shot.”
Hey Jimmy V, are you suggesting that the guy shooting 73% kick it out to the guys shooting 41% and less?!
Yeah, I guess your right, JJ being a ball hog must be the problem.
Regarding the idea that Degand is doing ok, but not creating a lot of assists, let me toss out some context. He is averaging 3 assists per game with an assist to turnover ratio of 2.0.
By comparison, 2 time national champ and current pro Taurean Green last year averaged 3.7 with a ratio of 1.37.
The one who doesn’t get any assists is Fells. Of our top six in minutes played he’s last in that category.
The 1990 team was “not allowed to play in the NCAAs” because they went 6-8 in the ACC. I’m not sure it had anything to do with the scandel.
“The 1990 team was “not allowed to play in the NCAAs” because they went 6-8 in the ACC. I’m not sure it had anything to do with the scandel.”
Yes, it did. Had we gone 14-0, it would not have mattered. We were banned from postseason play that year. The NCAA Major Infractions Database is online, open to the public and will provide you with all the information you need on this.
One thing Degand has that other PG in the conference do not have is good size. he has made some nice plays this season after getting beat by virtue of his size.
To another poster i recall Horner picking up a few charges.
I am not sure what to think right now.
This team is in alot of flux so I am hestitant to judge too quickly.
At the same time I see some things tha concern me greatly.
PG play is not one of them. IMO all we need our PG to do is not screw up, make occasional jumpers and sometimes create shots. Degand has been doing that.
It seems the big three (Fells, Costner and Big Mac) are not pulling their load. For whatever reason they are not getting it done.
Hopefully the ship will be righted.
Against Michigan State, Ben logged 21 minutes and scored no points and had no rebounds.
As far as Corch and Monroe — love them. Great players. I’m just making the point that having fantastic guards is apparently no panacea. Just pointing out that a PG with over 1000 assists and a SG who owns our school scoring record, who played all 4 years together with no injury problems, still managed to accomplish “jack squat” in the postseason while they were here. If guards are the key to everything in basketball there is no way this could be true.
^
Girlfriend,
It is pointless to “debate” with someone who (1) reduces Corch & Monroe’s accomplishments to “jack squat” (2) glosses over the severe external factors that they had to deal with during their tenure—as well as a host of misfit teammates, and (3) implies that guards aren’t key to basketball success…you really are in a coma.
You must have loved all of the end game situations under Herb when we had no guard who could break free or create a decent shot for himself…
Enjoy the continuing inconsistency and the mind boggling losses and near losses. That won’t change until we have great guard play.
No, wait, we don’t need guards. Just have JJ bring the ball up, set up the O, break down the defense. He’s top 10. He should be able to do that. If he gets double teamed, he should just dribble out and shoot the 3.
YAY!!
^ Watch how my man ShootingGuard shows how fun and easy to debate a straw man!
Let me know when you want to respond to something I actually wrote rather than your absurd caricature of it.
And I hadn’t even gotten around to mentioning the first round ACCT loss to Maryland when we were the 1 seed. You want to talk about a State team throwing out an all-time porker, that one has got to be in the top 3. Notwithstanding the phenomenal backcourt.
^
“Let me know when you want to respond to something I actually wrote rather than your absurd caricature of it.”
You should take your own advice. For one, I never said great guards solved everything.
If raising the level of guard play up a knotch makes no difference and is meaningless to you, so be it.
I seem to think there was a big difference when we improved at the point guard slot when Atsur came back last year over what we had when Fells and Grant were manning the “unimportant” point guard slot (please see the comparative results), and I think a lot of our problems will be reduced IF Degand continues to get experience/improvement and IF Fells would bring it every game rather than every other game AND/OR, in the future, we bring in elite top tier talent at point guard and shooting guard to lead the team and bring outside shooting punch to free up our frontcourt.
Call me crazy!
Done here.
Who are you quoting with “unimportant”?
Look up “straw man” and get back to me. I’d tell you what it means but it will do you good to look it up for yourself.
i happen to think a sweet 16 (that was one call away from an elite
is anything but “accomplishing jack-squat” although we wouldve loved to have advanced, it was a good season.
im not a hge fan of Herb, but his sweet 16, was the highlight of his career here.
in short, to say that Corch and Monroe, didnt accomplish squat while they were here is just worng
Touted earlier as the “Best front court in the country” and then what ^chop said, “We aren’t getting easy baskets”. Um, excuse me, but those two statements shouldn’t fit together at all. Unfortunately it is the exact truth at the moment though.
^
Or, put another way, how good would we be if we had a Sean Singletary calibre guy running the show for us, this year or last plus anyone who could shoot consistently like JR Reynolds did?
No, college is not a guards’ game at all…
Sincerely,
SS, JRR, one guy with a cheesy moustache, and a bunch of no names = tied for first in the ACC last year…
Additional quotes provided by Kenny Anderson, Dennis Scott, Brian Oliver, one professional hack man, and a several other no names = Final Four…
SG,
I would not waste time debating someone that thinks guards to not win college bball games.
I’d have to say both front and backcourt are equally important. Does Florida win the last 2 years without Green and Humphrey? Almost certainly not. But do they win without Noah, Horford and Brewer? Again, not very likely.
shooting^ have you heard much about Marques Johnson? can he play pt? or is he just going to be a SG? if so, can he come in for Fells, without much dropoff? he was a 4 star recruit right?
pb04,
MJ will get his shot at playing some pg, but we won’t really know how that works out until he gets out on the floor vs the competition. He like, Farnold, doesn’t have a lot of college experience, but, hopefully, he will improve steadily. Farnold will likely stay in the starting slot with MJ coming in as the big pg change-up to Farnold’s speed option. Unless these 2 fall apart, I would expect Javy to take a seat for a while unless he gets stronger with the ball and up to speed on things quicker than expected. Farnold and MJ are just ahead of him right now if for no other reason than they are older and have had a lot of practice time on the college level, even if not game experience.
MJ will give Sid at the least the option of bringing in a physical guy for Fells or Grant, but MJ, though strong, is not particularly athletic or quick and his jumpshot hasn’t shown to be too consistent so far, unfortunately for us.
Farnold/MJ + Fells/Grant/Horner + Ben/BC/JJ with Javy & Tracy in the back pocket has the makings for great depth if we can figure out how to mesh the new faces with the old. Guys need to start knocking down outside shots, though. Otherwise, what other option do you have but to pound it in to Mr. High % Shot?
“Or, put another way, how good would we be if we had a Sean Singletary calibre guy running the show for us, this year or last ”
a nba-calibre pg will do wonders for any team. of course, they aren’t easy to find/get.
SHOOTING^
shooting^ sorry for that post above. i hit send inadverdantly (sp?)
agreed we need to start hitting some shots from the outside, and that was what i was hoping you were going to tell me. That MJ has a nice outside stroke and was going to be a huge lift. but alas. anywho. can he at least shoot free throws? that has been another thing about this team that drives me crazy. they are called “FREE” throws for a reason. they are supposed to be free.
maybe you can help me with this a little too. i personally feel that depth is extremely overrated (unless you have injuries). But it seems to me that if we could just find 7-8 players who wil hustle and attack the boards, we should just stick with them and not go to as deep of a bench. it worked last year. K uses mainly 7-8 players. it worked against Roy last year when he was trying to play 10 players. this is just my thoughts and any insight others have might help me. it just seems like our top 6 players still ought to be averaging 30 mins per game? this team is not that diferent from last years. we lost atsur and gained JJ and Degand.
IMO, we should play only the following players:
iron 4: grant. mcauley, fells, costner
6th man: Horner
Newcomers: JJ and Degand
at this point to me, noone else deserves to play
Wasn’t Valvano the one that used to basically throw everyone on the court at the beginning of the year, let themselves sort it out, and then go with that?
To the people who point out that the point guard is one of the main problems with this team—
ITS NOT THE POINT GUARDING. its the whole team, and there lack of passion and fire during a game! They stand around fiddling there thumbs!
PB04 sorry but you can’t be serious. Have you seen any of the games?
JJ only gets a blow occasionally. 36 minutes
You leave Ben in when he gets emotional and works hard. 30 minutes
Degand is the only point guard we have, despite the horrible free throw shooting. 38 minutes
Fells plays D and is quick. 36 minutes
Grant causes match up problems and can slash. 36 minutes
Horner Hustle 10 minutes
Costner can shoot free throws. 10 minutes
I’m really curious to how Sid approaches the ECU game saturday.
After the lackadaisical efforts against MSU, I’d start
1:Degand
2:Fells
3:Grant
4:Horner
5:Hickson
Degand, Horner, and Hickson were the only ones that came to play last time out. I understand some of the lackadaisical effort was being tired. Because of that, I’m giving Fells and Grant a pass; most of their lack of successes were due to travel fatigue. McCauley and Costner showed mental tiredness, didn’t seem to even want to be out there.
Let McCauley, Costner, and Gonzalez get junk minutes to spell the starters, but that’s about it. You have to earn what you get. Gonzalez isn’t ready, and the other two don’t want it enough.
^
pb04,
I completely agree about depth and limiting substitutions.
I think Sid was trying to get everyone minutes while it was close, and that helped backfire against us in the UNO game as no one got into any flow whatsoever.
I think a key to winning the tourney in Florida was that Sid went to the limited lineup.
We should rotate JJ/Ben/BC at the 4 & 5, Grant/Fells/Horner on the wing, and Degand/MJ at the point. Everyone else is there for serious foul trouble or mop up minutes.
If we were a pressing/running team, we would need to work more people in, but, since you have to actually play defense and get rebounds to run—that kind of kills the need for too much depth unfortunately!!
79^, those minutes are pretty much in line with what i was suggesting. yeah Not everyone is gonna play exactly 30 mins a game. but i think youve got a pretty good mix right there. i didnt mean to imply that Horner should play the same minutes as JJ, i was just suggesting those are the only 7 players i would play right now, and when we get MJ he could get some PT as well as the 8th man in the rotation. and that is all i was saying. play 7 or 8 guys, and thats it.
good points on the press SG. so is your overall impression that MJ will be able to comtribute????? or is he a “project” as well?
I’m only going off what I saw of the red/white game, but the comparison between MJ and Degand is pretty much this from that one game.
MJ: Defensive PG, not very “Speedy” but he made some really good passes and only turned the ball over once even though Degand was running circles around him at times. He racked up a ton of fouls trying to defend Degand who had the speed advantage. I’m guessing that he was just exerting himself since fouls didn’t really matter in that game. Weird 3 pt jumpshot a la Hodge, but no idea if it works since one game doesn’t mean anything as far as shooting.
Degand: Tons of speed. He was running all over MJ on defense, literally running past him attempting to steal the ball, and then doubling back and zipping right by him again. Against MJ he used his speed on defense to give him a lot of trouble, but even with all that pressure MJ only turned the ball over once.
MJ will definitely be able to contribute, but as far as who starts the show, it’s going to be whoever figures out how to run the show first, because right now Grant is our leader in assists, and we all know how well Grant ran the show last year.
trip^
“he made some really good passes” that is EXACTLY what i wanted to hear. i havent been thoroughly impressed or discouraged by Degand at this point. but he will def. need to pick it up come ACC play. one of the many aspects of Degands game that does concern me is that one handed pass BS. Lawson, Paulus, and others will have a field day with that crappy soft pass and take it the other way for an easy 2. Sid needs to tell Degand to put 2 hands on his passes and make them firmly. lazy perimeter passes will not stand in conference play.
MJ has a stronger pass, some of which probably comes from having 30-35 extra pounds of muscle on his frame. He made one really good baseball throw to costner for the alley oop that was fairly impressive, even though Costner managed to miss the shot. I don’t think he clocked in a lot of assists, but that’s mainly because his team was missing their shots, not that he wasn’t giving them out.
One thing that worrys me is that it seems he had some attitude problems at Tennesee being benched, which is part of the reason he left TN. He was expecting to get playing time immediately when he got there, and since he was behind an already talented depth-filled backcourt he never got any after they returned from injuries. While I can’t see him not getting any PT at all, I hope the attitude doesn’t return because this team doesn’t need anymore chemistry issues.