Fresh off Sidney Lowe’s first Raleigh Caravan, our blogging minds have turned back to basketball - particularly, Wolfpack retro. As a fun off-season exercise, a few of us brainstormed about rough comparisons of the 2007-08 roster to Wolfpackers of the past. Please share your own comps and thoughts in the comments section below. Our memories are very sketchy before the early 80s, so we are counting on the collective wisdom of our readership to cover prior decades.
- Degand = Cliff Crawford, Kelsey Weems
- Fells = Ernie Myers, Cam Bennerman, Scooter Sherrill
- Grant = Ishua Benjamin, Ernie Myers, Brian Howard, Jeremy Hyatt
- Horner = Walker Lambiotte, Andy Kennedy, Ilian Evtimov
- Smith = Brian Howard, Levi Watkins, Lorenzo Charles
- Costner = Thurl Bailey, Kenny Carr, Tom Gugliotta
- McCauley = Chucky Brown, Kevin Thompson, Evtimov/Todd Fuller hybrid (passing and low-post moves)
- Hickson = Chris Washburn (without the negative off-court baggage), Charles Shackleford (ditto)
- Johnson = Nate McMillan, Mickey Hinnant, Kenny Matthews, CC Harrison
- Javi = Curtis Marshall, Lakista McCuller
- Thomas = Cam Bennerman, smaller Kenny Carr, Brian Howard
By way of disclosure, the first listed comp is mine - not the consensus or “best” comp for the player.
I think Fells & Grant have higher ceilings than some of those other players. If they work on getting a consistent shot I can see them in the NBA.
Fells could be a team leading star in the NBA if he wants to be. He could be on SportsCenter every night just about.
Explosiveness coupled with inconsistency is why I think Myers is a proper comp for Fells. Wasn’t Myers like a Top 10 recruit? Consistency was more of an issue than his “ceiling.”
I really think Grant is morphing into Ishua - can’t handle the rock enough to play PG (despite playing there sometimes out of necessity), also with an inconsistent outside shot. Both are dynamic athletes from the SF position, and Ishua became a defensive stopper when he accepted his role as a senior. Grant can do that too, if he puts his mind to it.
I like the Thomas/Brian Howard comparison…Brian was not looked to for offensive fire-power, but was a consumate role guy: some rebounds, passing, could score…as V called him, “The glue of the team”. In a couple of years that could be Thomas.
How about a Javi/Justin Gainey comparison?
^Fells definitely could be on SportsCenter everynight, but I think now it would be like a Pippen/Iverson highlight reel– you could watch him hitting 10 of 12 or missing 10 of 12 in a game.
Overall I really like these comparisons. Made me think of a few players I haven’t thought of outside of ESPN Classic in a while. With Hickson, I see his immediate impact as a Thorton/Inge type player (I like to have low expectations for freshmen).
I went to Louisburg College with Mickey Hinnant, what a great guy. I haven’t thought about him in years. Hinnant was a man alongside boys in that Junior College gym in Louisburg. Man that brings back memories.
BJD95- Speaking of Ernie Myers and his ceiling, I recall watching a game on ESPN classic in March where the announcers absolutely RAVED about Ernie Myers. This game was freshman year I think, and it could have been one of the State/Carolina games that season.
I thought Myers best year was his Freshman year when DW was hurt.
I like Marcus Melvin on the Costner list.
I really like that you included Brian Howard. A very underappreciated player. If Gavin Grant plays this year as well as Brian Howard did his senior year, we will be ecstatic. I like Grant way more than many on this site but he doesn’t do anything as well as Howard.
^Would love to see Grant become the defensive stopper like Benjamin but just don’t see it. I think Fells has a better chance to fill this role.
Remember, the defensive improvement from Ishua’s junior to senior seasons was dramatic. It came when he finally accepted the fact that he wasn’t going to be an offensive star. I agree that Fells could possibly do this as well, but his body type is very different from the Benjamin/Grant mold.
^BJD95 - agree with that.
I do think Fells & Benjamin are quicker than Grant and this is a big factor in becoming a defensive stopper.
I hope this posts in a readable format, if not feel free to delete it. FYI Look at the free throw % his Sr Year.
Myers, Ernie
NCSU
Manhattan, NY
6′4 - 203
Yr Cl Min MPG FGM FGA FG% 3M 3A 3FG% FTM FTA FT% PPG
– — —- —- — —- —- — — —- — — —- —-
83 Fr 744 21.3 150 336 .446 17 51 .333 74 122 .607 11.2
84 So 719 21.8 120 300 .400 - - - 74 103 .718 9.5
85 Jr 543 17.0 95 211 .450 - - - 38 59 .644 7.1
86 sr 943 27.7 114 275 .415 - - - 88 106 .830 9.3
too bad there are no corchiani and monroe comparisons, yet.
hopefully at the end of next season we can add them to degand and javi, and fells and johnson
“I agree that Fells could possibly do this as well, but his body type is very different from the Benjamin/Grant mold.”
I hope this does not happen.
He has such potential tha tit would be a shame to see Fells become a stopper only.
I really like the list SFN, but wanted to share a few comments. I don’t see the Jeremy Hyatt/Gavin Grant similarity. Hyatt was a much better shooter and did not have Grant’s ability to post up smaller forwards. From what I’ve seen, I’d liken Hickson to Inge with similar explosiveness around the basket. I also see a little bit of a Chuck Kornegay in Tracy Smith’s game. It’s great to be excited about the future of Wolfpack basketball again while also looking at the past!
I see Costner as sort of a taller, better rebounding Hawkeye Whitney.
Haven’t yet seen Smith in action, but was under the impression that he was a ‘true’ PF. Sounds like you see him as more of a SF/PF mix?
Oh, I also forgot to mention the obvious comparison with Smith and Kornegay’s eligibility issues. Tis a shame.
^Yeah, now come on…someone here must know something about Smith’s situation. Spill it baby!!
We’ve heard that Smith is capable of playing both forward positions. He needs to work on some things to be a starter-caliber “3″, but it’s a reasonable projection.
Wow, I had forgotten all about Chuck Kornegay. What an explosive talent. Remember when Les was quoted as saying that his grades were worse than Chuck’s (when he was suspended for academics)?
Yeah BJD95, I vaugely remember Les saying that. It seemed like there was some controversy around Kornegay’s GPA in 93-94 before he transferred to Villanova the next season. I think they won the Big East with him there in 95 and 97.
Remember when Ishua Benjamin arrived he was more of a scorer than when he left. He lost his shot after his freshman year. But started his career at State with some 28 or 29 points in his first game ever.
^ True, but he was nowhere near as effective in ACC play. And his offensive effectiveness steadily decreased over the next few years.
I have no doubt Gavin Grant would have had 20+ scoing nights as a freshman, had he played on teams that were as bad as Ishua’s.
i find it interesting that none of the current players were compared to any of the current coaches? sid? towe? QJ?
How about McCauley as a Vann Williford? Extremely hard working, alway hustling, and fan favorite. Horner as a Steve Walker?
I considered listing QJ as a possible comp for Javi. I don’t see Sid or Towe in any of our currrent players, though.
skywalker,
i remember ivan wagner had 29 points in his first game, i dont remember ishua “most defineatly” benjamin doing that. i was really unhappy when ivan transfered to memphis(i think), i thought he was going to be a great player for us.
What about Anthony Grundy? He led the team in points, rebounds, steals, and assists his senior year. Grundy was the best player and most determined player the last two decades of basketball at NC state. Hopefully one of our new 1 or 2 gaurds will turn out to be the next grundy…..
Wags transferred to Texas.
Osh’s first game in a State uniform was also his highest-scoring. He hit for almost 30.
Ishua had 29 points in the first game of the 95 -96 season, Nov. 26th 1995. Wagner went on to play for Texas.
Ishua also had 22 and 20 points in the Kansas and UCLA games at the start of his Freshman season.
Courtney Fells = Al Green. A better athlete than a basketball player.
McCauley is very similar to Lorenzo Charles. A down on the blocks, drop step oriented, can finish with either hand, classic low post guy who is under 6′10″.
Ivan Wagner - I had forgotten about him. I can’t remember what his career ended up looking like, but the kid could fly. Another interesting discussion would be reviewing all of the “if he’d stayed …” players like Ivan, and the “If we could only have sealed the deal” players like Stackhouse, etc. Cool concept, hope the new kids live up to the old.
SFN: Wagner ended up as an all-conference point guard playing for Rick Barnes and won a Big 12 Championship in Barnes’ first season (when he took over a scandal-ridden program that only had 6 scholarship players).
(sarcasm) So glad that Herb ran off Wagner so that we could recruit the likes of Rhouldra Thomas.
I just hope a PG one day compares to either Terry Gannon, Monte Towe or Sid Lowe.
I thought Terry Gannon was a 2?
SFN: Terry Gannon was most definitely a two-guard. Perhaps the previous poster was trying to refer to Vinny Del Negro.
if they had stayed all stars….
mike bell, ivan wagner, dominic mejia, adam harrington, damien wilkins, who else, i know there is more.
mike bell was unbeleivable in high school, i went to enloe and graduated in his same class. watching him and wilcox play every week, i thought bell was the sure NBA prospect. he was like a poor mans kevin durant, awesome to watch, incredible passer, dribbler, and shooter for a 6′9″ guy. i never understood why he got no pt under herb. then again i didnt understand much about herb.
^ big difference between HS & ACC
^ fair enough,
however i do remember hearing that he transferred to some division II or III school and averaged close to 30ppg
How big a difference is there between HS & ACC? Is it bigger than between ACC & NBA, or Jr. College & ACC? Just wondering??
^ good question.
seems to me like wilcox was given an oppurtunity to play and he turned it into a millon dollar career. i bet mike wishes he had the same oppurtunity, since he was better in HS, and hates herb more than anyone here can possibly imagine.
^Yep, that’s right, you get to play “in” HS.
But not “for” HS.
Osh scored 29 on Prairie View A&M I believe. I also think that was during their record losing streak. Mike Bell had chronic knee problems and then transferred to Florida A&M maybe and won that conference player of the year award.
“however i do remember hearing that he transferred to some division II or III school and averaged close to 30ppg”
where is he now?
i remember the knee problems, tendenitis i think, but didnt he get a medical redshirt? i could have sworn he was sitting on the bench with two perfectly fine knees his second year
i have no idea where he is now, cedar. my guess would be europe.
Mike Bell went to Florida Atlantic and was Atlantic Sun Player of the Year in 2004-05. Had over 1000 points and 500 boards in his two years. After the 04-05 season, he signed w/ a team in Turkey. His career averages at FAU were 18.5ppg/9.5rpg.
He, (Mike Bell), was playing in Turkey, but don’t know if that’s still the case.
Bell finished his college career at Florida Atlantic…which is almost as bad as D-II.
He averaged 19 points and 9 rebounds as a senior. Played for Sidney Green, I think.
As for currently, it looks like Bell last played for a team in Spain. No way in hell am I paying for premium access to this site though .
http://www.eurobasket.com/team.asp?Cntry=TUR&team=1048&option=Tuborg%20Izmir%20%20(TUR-D3)&Cntr=TUR&logo=troy.gif
Long link, I don’t feel like taking 15 seconds to go to tinurl, and I doubt many will want to look at a long euroroster anyway; but for those who do it is above.
wow you guys are thorough. i tried to google it, i could only find his florida atlantic points and bords per game.
Brief jog down memory lane …
We talk about point guards and how bad we need one, my favorite of all was Chris Corchiani. Yes he was short and had no shot so he wasn’t the best ever, but he was a wizard with the ball. I can clearly remember several occaisions of him bringing the ball up court and someone trying to guard him and he’d stick his butt into the guy and sometimes the opposing player would end up laying on Corch’s back. Even then Corch kept dribbling until the foul was called. That was a fun team.
PapaJohn said:
“Yes he was short and had no shot so he wasn’t the best ever, but he was a wizard with the ball. ”
Half-right. Corch was a wizard with the ball AND he could shoot extremely well. He had a set shot that didn’t translate well to the NBA game but he was a very good shooter - better, in fact, than Bobby Hurley, who is generally considered one of the top 10 guards in ACC history.
Corch and Hurley had identical career 3-point shooting percentages (41%, which is outstanding), but Corch was better from the field (46% to 41%) and from the line (82% to 78%). Their scoring averages were virtually identical has well, with Hurley averaging 17 a game his senior year and 12 for his career (Corch averaged 16 and 12, respectively) Considering that Corch was also a more efficient ball distributor (8.4 apg to Hurley’s 7.7) it’s hard to argue that Hurley was better than Corch.
I think the most balanced comparison between Hurley and Corch was that they were virtual equals on the court - both incredible college point guards who excelled at ball distribution AND scoring. Hurley just had the good fortune of playing with a better supporting cast than Corch.
Corch won the college 3-point contest his senior year. Beat Monroe in the final!
Hurley also played something in the low teens more games than Corch IIRC. Hurley went to how many FFs. Corch made it the tourney too alot, but we rarely went more than 2 games.
I still liked Lowe better. He never made a mistake.
Lowe is hard to beat just about in any way. He was always cool and in control, never rattled or intimidated by anything, and a point guard who could create a score, for somebody, whenever needed. Also, Monte Towe, from back in my glory days, was also a smart, tough, BB player. He created turnovers with hustle and just knowing where the ball was going to be. Even at his height, he was a big plus on the defensive end. He very rarely turned it over, could shoot the ball when defenses sagged inside, and he is probably the reason the term “Alley Oop” was invented.
My two personal favorites, in order, anyway. But, who here doesn’t like a NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP caliber point guard from N C S T A T E.
Looks like we could have some possible Whitt types being recruited. Jarrett Man ‘08 SG and Deleware POY, and Noel Johnson ‘09 SG out of GA.
…Jarrett Mann is how he spells it. Was supposedly a shoe in to sign with Stanford, but after turning alot of heads at camps he is re evaluating. Great shooter with a ton of confidence.
PapaJohn, I agree that Corch was great. My all-time best memory of a State PG has to be Monte, though. It’s a toss-up between those two for me. I loved Sid, too. Another one of my favorites of all-time who is hard to compare is SPUD! He was great! No one like him! Anyone care to list their all-star NCState team? I’ll go with
1. Monte/Corch
2. Rodney/Vinny
3. DT/Chucky/Julius
4. Thurl/Googs
5. Tommy B/Shackelford
Well, it was fun just to think about it…. I’m sure I’m missing a bunch, but those are good top 11.
Okay, I just realized I left out Sid and Whitt!! I apologize!! Washburn is the ultimate, “what could have been.”
Smith as Danny Strong and his enormous wristband
I have to disagree with the Horner comparisons. Is it because they are all white? Horner stuck with us — Lambiotte and Kennedy transferred, and were not alot like Horner. I’d almost compare Horner more to a shorter Googs. Or even alot like Chucky…Especially, after only his Freshman year. Horner may surprise some folks….he has got one sweet shot, although his release needs to be quicker.
Horner is also alot more “athletic” than Elian, and he’s shown the ability to take folks off the dribble — something Elian, Lambiotte, or Kennedy rarely did.
Corch was not “short”. He was about six feet which is fine for a PG. Spud was “short” but played very tall.
I never knew Corch beat Rodney in the 3-point contest his senior year…Good stuff. He had a good shot, hence the tons of points in H.S., but it was more of a set shot and had a tough time against taller defenders on the perimeter.
BTW, I don’t think Tracy is going to qualify…he would have signed by now. Can a non-qualifier practice with the team and play the next semester — or the next year???
Qualifying has nothing to do with signing, however Tracy supposedly signed his LOI last week
Is Hickson “amphibious” like Chris Washburn? lol
i think he has signed .would say 95% . waiting on second sat score to come back . to make it off.
Shackleford was amphibious, not Washburn…as I said, I don’t think Smith is going to qualify…whether he signed an LOI last week or not, which I don’t think he did. I hope he qualifies, but it’s not looking good.
My favorite Corch memories are all of the games he played against Duke. Won some, lost some, but for 4 years, K was stubbornly determined that he could press Chris, and everytime Corch would eat the Duke press alive.
Chris Corchiani was the absolute best north-south dribble-penetrator I ever saw.
He didn’t have incredible speed and quickness like a Kenny Smith or a Kenny Anderson, so he couldn’t put a drop-step or crossover on you, but he could beat you to that one spot on the floor where he had just enough leverage to squeeze past the defender. Then he’d get into the lane and was brilliant at these little wrap-around passes to the big guys collapsing from the edges.
“whether he signed an LOI last week or not, which I don’t think he did”
I think he did
One more about Corch:
Does anyone remember his recruiting? There were a couple of great HS point guards out there, King Rice and Corch. Carolina decided that “the King” was the better player and focused on him. So there was a great deal of discussion their freshman year who was going to be the better PG.
HAHAHAHA
That discussion didn’t last long.
We don’t out recruit the Heels often, but we sure did that time.
BTW, we’ve got some posters who either have incredible memories or are great researchers! I had no idea Corch was that good a shooter. I went to a ton of his games, and video taped them all (kept them for years till my wife got sick of them) and I remember frequently feeling frustrated that he either didn’t take the critical shot, or didn’t hit it. He was certainly the epitome of the ‘pass first’ PG. I had also forgotten he was 6 feet, but he didn’t look it. He was built kind of like Sid and didn’t look as tall as he was.
We have certainly been fortunate with PGs. And with Sid, Monte, QJ, and Justin on staff, you’d think we’d be a magnet for more great ones. Hope so!
In the 3-point contest, Rodney had an incredible semifinal round, where I think he only missed 3 or 4 of 25 shots. He was worn out in the final, and Corch had his best round of the day. Watching the two of them square off was outstanding. I would have taken time to cherish it more if I knew what the rest of 90s were going to be like.
King Rice was, IIRC, THE prominent point guard in his class. He was a top-10 player. The top guards overall were LaBradford Smith (Louisville) and Eric Manual (UK) and Rodney Monroe, but among the point guards…King Rice was considered the best by everyone.
Corchiani was considered a top-50 guy and was ranked alongside point guards like Elliot Perry (Memphis State) and John Crotty (UVa) and Sean Miller (pitt…yes, that Sean Miller).
LaBradford Smith and Delino DeShields were the two big variables. Everyone loved their game, but figured they’d sign to play baseball. DeShields did, Smith ended up sticking with basketball.
Manual ended up getting busted after cheating on his SATs and was barred from ever playing NCAA-sanctioned basketball. He played NAIA ball and then played in Europe. UK ended up getting busted with the Emory envelope and faulty glue headed for LeRon Ellis.
The top player in the country was Larry Johnson, but everyone knew he wasn’t going to qualify. The next best player was Marcus Liberty, but everyone was reasonably certain he wouldn’t qualify either (he didn’t). Manual and Ellis got taken down a peg…so that meant the top incoming freshmen were Rice, Brian Williams (Maryland), Smith, and Dennis Scott (Ga. Tech).
(BTW, Scott almost ended up not qualifying. Seems like I remember him setting some record for the most number of times taking the SATs before getting a 700. Seems like he took it 25 times or something.)
Rice got to UNC and pretty quickly, everyone realized that he wasn’t especially fast and he couldn’t shoot. I remember reading Dean Smith’s description of him and Smith said, “He isn’t the best shooter, or the quickest guy, or the best ball-handler….he just finds a way to beat you.”
Well…not really. I never saw him play in high school, so I have *no* idea why everyone was so high on him. He was a smallish, plodding, no-shooting, average-passing guard. A good backup, in other words.
John Crotty would have gone to UNC with a big ol’ happy smile on his face, as I understand it, so I’m glad they passed on him. It became pretty clear early on that Rice was at the back of the pack in terms of skills. I remember him making exactly one big shot in his career….against James Madison in the 1989-90 season. Carolina was struggling heavily at the beginning of that year and they were in danger of losing to Lefty’s squad. At the end of the game, Rice hit a double-clutched, wild 15 footer at the top of the lane that banked in to win it.
Other than that…the only memorable thing he did was run over Quinn Snyder at the end of the 1989 ACC tourney championship game in Greensboro and get called for the charge. That pretty much gave Dook the win.
I think that was 1989…might have been 1988.
^^I think he did
I hope he qualifies, as I think he’ll be a nice addition, but not a big requirement for next year, as I think we’ll be okay in the 3-4 spot.
noah, you researched, ALL of that can’t possibly be coming from memory, can it? If it is memory, or even 60 percent of it, I yield to your supreme brain power.
Don’t answer that question, great post, I’m impressed either way. GOOD stuff!!!
I had the very good fortune of knowing a *lot* of people who were involved in college basketball and recruiting around 1987 to 1989 or so. I consider myself a near-expert on those classes.
What class was Grant Hill in? Class of 1990? For some very odd reason, I know next to nothing about that one. I think that must have been the year we were on probation and couldn’t recruit…so I didn’t marinate my head in recruiting knowledge about that year.
BTW…if you want to see something really impressive (or sad…take your pick), pick my brain about the 1983 Atlanta Braves. I can tell you the entire lineup, pitching rotation, stats, bench players, the state of the Braves’ minor league system (Miguel Sosa, Brad Kominsk, Paul Zuvella, Gerald Perry, Matt Sinatro…), and a whole bunch of specific games. I remember Joe Torre bringing in Tony Brizzolara cold against the Dodgers when he hadn’t had a chance to warm up, how RJ Reynolds OWNED the Braves pitching, how a coked-out Steve Bedrosian gave up a potentially game-winning homer to Greg Brock one day and then got bailed out when Bob Watson hit a pinch-hit two-run dinger in the bottom of the ninth. I remember Terry Forster’s “feud” with Letterman over his playing weight. I remember Claudell Washington’s hamstrings. I remember Brook Jacoby and Rick Behenna and a “player to be named later” being traded for the bucket of spit known as Len Barker and how Ted Turner tried to convince everyone that the PTBNL was NOT Brett Butler. I remember Bruce Benedict’s 20+ game hitting streak (he’s now an ACC ref, BTW). I remember Biff Pocaroba and Jerry Royster and Terry Harper. I remember when Dodgers had a backup catcher named Jack Fimple….
I remember…Raisin Bran.
“I hope he qualifies, as I think he’ll be a nice addition, but not a big requirement for next year, as I think we’ll be okay in the 3-4 spot.”
I agree that we’ll be ok next season if Tracy doesn’t qualify, but I get worried about after that. JJ could be one & done, Costner might make the jump too. We’d be left with Ben & Horner
Lineup
1. Brett Butler, LF
2. Rafael Ramirez, “SS”
Lineup
spoon
bowl
cereal
milk
Mr Noah, you are the master! Great information, thank you. I do remember that when he came in, we knew Corch was going to be great - that was not a surprise.
I read in the N&O yesterday that a gentleman has compiled all of the stats from every ACC basketball game ever played, with box scores and game summaries. Unfortunately it will cost $300, but there will be cheaper, school specific versions. You sir, need that book.
This a fun Wolfpack history thread. Let’s not go off the rails about Sendek AGAIN.
I think Noah WROTE that book!
Damn, what happened to my braves lineup card?? Ah well…
I saw the piece about the ACC encyclopedia. I’m thinking about whether or not that would make a good investment.
I think Cozell McQueen and Hickson are similiar in build, but complete opposites in offensive ability. Nobody mentioned Hawkeye Whitney…
I guess maybe it’s because Hawkeye had short range touch and operated mainly in the midrange to inside areas, nobody shoots from eight feet anymore, so there’s not much comparison to that type of play these days. He was the most consistent, and the go to guy on the team for a while there. I did love watching ol’ Hawkeye Whitney playing in a Wolfpack uniform back then though. I wonder where he is now?
…That’s right, I remember an earlier article on Hawkeye, about how he had struggled horribly but had turned his life around. Hope it’s still going well for him.
rf2—hawkeye was coaching with phil spence at east wake about 7-10 years ago—not sure now—one more comparison to consider—mccauley’s work ethic is reminiscent of tim stoddard’s—tim played hard every game—his skill level was enhanced by this determined attitude—loved watching him compete
I worked with Hawkeye at Durham City Parks and Rec one summer in 1993 or 1994. What a great guy! We worked Pony Baseball together and had a lot of fun. He was try to get his life back together then, but things didn’t work out real well then. If I remember right he didn’t even finish the season. He was still a really great guy to be around. I remember giving him a ride home one night in my 1979 280ZX and he told how that was the first car he went out and got after he signed with the KC Kings. He loved to talk about how much fun he had with Kenny D (of Duke) in KC. I remember thinking too how crazy it was for him to buy a 280ZX, he had the HARDEST time getting his big butt in and out of my car.
Hawkeye was one of those players who was fun to watch because his game continued to develop over his career. As a freshman/soph, he scored mainly on short jumpers from the baseline. But by the time he was a junior/sen, his ball handling had improved enormously, and he had perfected that dribble spin move into a jumper from the top of the circle area that was almost unstoppable at the college level.
One of my favorite memories of Hawkeye is one he’d probably just as soon forget. When he was a senior, I played with him in a pickup game. Kenny Carr was in town, and Hawkeye drew the task of guarding him. Now he’d slimmed down some while he was here, but he was still a very big guy, probably around 225 to 230 or so. But it was like a six year old trying to guard me. Carr threw him around the gym like he was a toy. The rest of us in the game just tried our best to stay out of the way. One of the most amazing things I’ve even seen, and one of many reasons why I think Carr was the most talented player in State history. (not the most outstanding, that would be DT, of course.)
The three most-skilled players in NC State history….it’s really not even close.
1) DT
2) Carr
3) Ice
It’s a long drop to #4 in my opinion.
^^I never played with Carr, but he was a great BB player. I did play with DT on more than one occasion however, and also a few other future ABA/NBA HOF’ers, in pick up games. I’d have to say that while DT may not have thrown anyone around or muscled anyone, he did totally embarrass people, made them cover their 6′10″ heads and run for cover, and he put them to shame any time and every time he felt the slightest urge to do so. But it was always with a ‘no big deal’, and nonchalant demeanor, and a smile on his face after sinking a rainbow jumper from WAY, and I MEAN WAY, WAY downtown, or easily slamming over someone seven or eight inches taller than himself. The other guys there, the future/current college and professional BB players, they laughed just as much as anyone, they had no defense to stop him. They knew exactly what they were witnessing, and they were just as impressed by his talents as the rest of us lowly, and dumbfounded, amateurs.
I guess what I’m saying is, I disagree on your “MOST” talented label. That WAS, still is the history of the ACC, and I’d vote all time, David Thompson.
I suppose it depends on how one defines ‘talented’. Thompson clearly had more and better refined basketball skills. But recall that Carr: a) didn’t start playing BB until a relatively late age and b) we only got to have him for 2 years. As a soph he led the league in both scoring and, at only 6′ 7″, rebounding. Imagine what he’d have been like as a senior.
Now the king of the rainbow jumper from way downtown was, of all people, Ted Brown. Not that he hit all that many of them, but he sure loved to take them.
Just to clarify, I’m biased as hell I know, and there are players out there now doing some unreal stuff that DT never did. But I have to believe that if right now there was kid named David Thompson playing BB in the back yard with his brothers in Boiling Springs, NC, that he would have seen and taken note of everything going on in the game today, and with all of his ungodly physical abilities and desire to be the best, that he would still be an innovator and way ahead of any of these guys when he arrived on the scene.
Just my opinion.
Oh, goodness yes. DT today with the 3 pointer, legal dunking and a 35 second clock; he’d probably average 35 ppg the one year before he went pro.
We only have to look as far as a 7′4″ Tommy Burleson, backed up by a scrappy 6′7″ Tim Stoddard, to see why DT really didn’t need to concern himself with rebounding while at State. I have no doubt that if there was a need, he would have more than filled it.
“the one year before he went pro”
God I hate that crap soooo much now.
One thing, though. While I’m sure it wouldn’t have made one iota of difference to him, I can’t quite visualize DT in today’s long baggy shorts. Just doesn’t seem right.
U R right about that. We probably wouldn’t have ever seen the ballons he had for thigh muscles.
One thing I remember about seeing DT play in person and on TV, he was the best player in every game he played in. The coaches knew it, the players knew it, and everyone watching could see it. I didn’t watch the pros very much back then, but I’d bet the same applied there as well. He had the physical ability and obviously had put the time in on the practice court.
By comparison, consider Kevin Durant. An excellent physical specimen who has well honed skills. But to quote a friend of mine, he really did not stand out that much in the games. Don’t misunderstand, he’s an excellent player, one that will likely be a great success in the pros - and he could definately score when things got tense, but it really wasn’t the same.
I’m not expressing it well, but DT was really something.
There were a couple of guys in the 70s who could hang with DT.
Unless you were watching the ABA (was anyone?), you missed Julius Erving in his prime. George Gervin also had a couple of years where, IMO, he was probably as refined an offensive player as the game has ever seen (yes, Jordan…including your best years). Gervin was never close to being the defender that Jordan was…but Jordan was never as good a shooter as Gervin.
I agree Dr J was awesome, and a lot of comparisons where made between his and DT’s games. It’s too bad that DT’s career fizzled so quickly because most people where saying that DT had everything Dr J had, and much more. On the “Iceman” George Gervin, he could absolutely fill it up, in every way, better than anyone I’ve ever witnessed. He had a wide array of some of the strangest looking shots I’ve ever seen, but he made them, and he made them night in, and night out. Maybe the most talented scorer ever. Kiki V was a big scorer back then also. But both of those were scorers first, and I didn’t feel they were as motivated or as dominating as David Thompson was, all over the court.
I’m BIASED to the max, but I still say that David Thompson, at six feet four inches, could play and overwhelm anyone out there.
Look at J. Erving’s rebounding numbers.
That’s where he seperated himself from DT.
DT was the better shooter though.
At 6′7″, Erving was low post player in the pros, so of course he more rebounding opportunities then DT. I loved Dr J in his early days in the ABA, he was things doing with the tri color ball that no one had even thought of, big huge afro following about two seconds behind, and he was also awesome in the NBA. It’s hard to dispute his talent or any of his awesome numbers. There are guys today, Dwayne Wade, Kobe, who also have great games. Jordan is ‘the man’ though I guess. But still, I believe that DT was so physically gifted and driven, though there was really no outward appearance of it, that he could have elevated his game further than anyone I’ve ever seen playing the game. He did it back then when it wasn’t really called for and I think it would just as true today.
I LOVED DT!!! NEVER SEEN ANYTHING OR ANYONE LIKE HIM!!! What can I say.
Thompson was an asset all over court, but still a hard player for a coach to figure out where to play, at 6′4″ and playing more like 6′9″ when necessary. He did shoot much better than Dr J though. I would have considered Erving a mediocre outer shooter at best, early in his professional career, but he vastly improved that part of his game later on. He was much improved, still not a great outside shooter, but he had a finger roll that took about two seconds before the ball reached the end of finger tips, and then flipped up, and fell gently through the net. He invented that shot, and I’ve yet to see anyone do it snywhere close to as well since.
Erving was also a master of using the glass. I’ve never seen anyone do it as well as he did.
And the greatest play in NBA history is still Erving’s drive along the baseline where he starts on one side, glides past the entire Lakers’ team and flips it from the other side….while he’s hovering out of bounds.
Agreed noah!!! I saw that play when it happened…and in the moment it was something where you sat there thinking, “Huh, what happened??? Did I just see what I thought I just saw?!!!!” Julius Erving’s arms always reminded of a reptile’s tongue, the kind that round up into a circle and then uncoil to apprehend their unsuspecting prey. He would go up exerting all kinds strain on the rest of his body then he just seemed to roll them out, and then kept on reaching WAY out there, and then his fingers would flick the ball ever so gently up, and off the glass, from a distance that was so far away from his the rest of his body, that it was just unbelievable. I do not know how he had so much touch and finesse in his hands and fingers to finish the play, when he was so stretched out and exerting so hard just to get the ball out there to begin with.
Maybe it was me, or just that time in my life, but it seemed there were more innovators and incredible basketball players all bunched up, and competing for a share of the limelight, back in those late ABA…NBA days.
take it to the hole… finga roll
“Maybe it was me, or just that time in my life, but it seemed there were more innovators and incredible basketball players all bunched up, and competing for a share of the limelight, back in those late ABA…NBA days.”
i dunno guys. obviously I am young and everything(therefore I am ignorant as hell about what basketball WAS and should have been) but I think the early 90’s had a lot of innovators and extreme talent as well. I think there are a few around still. I can see why you guys think those guys back in the day (erving, DT, Magic, Bird) where such great players… because they are! but I still think the game(especailly in the early 90’s) had a new batch of greats come out.
I already know what many of you are gonna say- talking about the changes in the game(and I agree that most of them are for the worst), but I cant say that if there were a pick up game with the likes of Stockton(or Nash), Malone(or Eeyore-I mean Tim Duncan), Jordan, Carter, and Ming on one side and DT, Dr J and _________(fill in the blanks for me) on the other, that those guys from the 90’s wouldnt give them one hell of a run for their money- playing the game whatever way.
just my thoughts. dont lynch me for them. and I do hate the NBA.
I don’t think anyone in their right mind would say that there isn’t incredible amounts of talent in the NBA.
It’s just that the game has devolved into something that’s simply not very entertaining for the vast majority of the American public. NCAA basketball ratings are pretty strong across the country…but NBA ratings for the regular season are XFL-worthy and they really aren’t THAT much higher for the playoffs.
What does it say when you dedicate six months of salaries, programming, formatting, officiating, regulating, organizing…all so you can have a handful of entertaining games between San Antonio and Phoenix?
ppsf23/noah, I have to agree about the talent level in the NBA right now, it IS still incredible. I guess maybe it was, or least it seemed this way to me anyway, that the players were playing for the love of the sport and it was more of a fraternity back then. They weren’t plying their skills here one week, and there the next, all because of the $$$. But that’s the way of all sports now, the kids learn it early with one or two years of college ball, then off to the pros for one or two years at X franchise. Then so on until their athletic careers are over. I just can’t watch or get even half way excited about the professional ranks in what amounts to pulling for a team logo with different players suited up from game to game.
I would say that the level of ATHLETICISM in the NBA is very high, but not the SKILL level. I recently went to a game here in Denver between the Nuggets and the Jazz, two teams that reached the playoffs. The level of shooting skill displayed was atrocious…no one, and I mean NO ONE could hit a jump shot. Every now and then someone will hit an outrageously long three, but the offense consisted mostly of guys simply bulling their way to the hoop, throwing something towards the hoop, and then hoping for a foul or an offensive rebound.
The reason that the Spurs win so much is they control the tempo, Duncan is a tough big man, and they have guys that can shoot. Of course, Ginobli does the kamakazi to the hoop a lot, but they have more skill than most teams…hence they win.
Couple the lack of skill with the general thuggery of the NBA and there’s no wonder it doesn’t receive high television ratings.
“I would say that the level of ATHLETICISM in the NBA is very high, but not the SKILL level.”
Exactly! It’s been that way for many years now. A lot of these guys are outrageously athletic nowadays, give them an open court or watch them get a shot in traffic that is hard to believe, and watch out!!! But that’s about it. Therefore, the emergence of one highly skilled Canadian and the pack of skilled Euro-ballers. The game has evolved and they are better athletes now, but those new guys are actually throw backs to when skill was the name of the game.
watched some of the Jazz/GS game last night and almost threw up. it was like watching a duke/NCState game only both teams had red on….
SOOOO many wistles.
SOOO boring
and how does becoming a millionare automatically make you a crybaby?!
I saw some of the end of that game too. There were a few really nice 18′ foot jumpers, but it was slop…py, one on one, with no flow at all. Not at all exciting to watch, for me anyway.
^ golden state is my favorite team to watch right now. you guys saw a bad game sure, but have you seen the rest of the series? or the GS V. Mavs series??? GS balled out in game 1 and 3 v. utah, but there gameplan is gimmicky and utah is a better overall team that can actually play defense. hence the sloppy play from gs.
Iceman Gervin was the master of the finger roll to me. I recall him making a finger roll from a step inside the free throw line against the Suns in a playoff game (long ago) that was almost obscene.
J had a way of making a shot from anywhere after he exploded to the hole, and he would dunk anybody on the break. I thought Doc was the smoothest basketball player ever, or at least close after Connie Hawkins.
Even though the guys now are undoubtedly more athletic, the style of the game HAS turned into a one-on-one showdown, to the detriment of most of the teams. That’s why the teams the “get it” (Spurs, Pistons) and play fundamental, team-oriented ball, and rebound and play D are at the top of the League, and T-Mac can’t win a playoff series.
^and Kevin Garnett cant make the playoffs…
I would have to say out of all the NBA teams the Pistons are my favorite to watch… and possibly the Suns.
I dont like the Spurs much because I hate seeing Duncans face everytime he gets a foul(that “what did I do?!?!” face that everyone does… but ol’Timmy’s REALLY bothers me cause he looks like he is about to cry) and when he GETS fouled(he looks like he is gonna CRY!!!). I mean what the hell is he soooo damn sad about?!?!
I was really torn when the Pistons traded Ben Wallace because they were so nasty with him, and the team seemed to flow so well together. I was pulling for them at the time too, so… but then he did go to my all time fav team the Bulls(not JUST because of Jordan… the mixture of him, Pippen, Rodman, Kuckoc(sp?), and Stever Kerr was the sickest 3 shooter!!!)
Steve Nash is f-ing SICK!! and thats all I need to say about the suns.