Allow me to save you some time and go ahead and pre-empt some of your comments. Some of you will want to chime in with a testoserone-laden statement that, “you shouldn’t put yourself in that position”…or “never let it come down to the last play”. To be fair, I can’t disagree with you when you make that kind of statement about a game with Akron. So, don’t bother repeating it.
And, please don’t misunderstand my comments in this entry. I am not “blaming the refs” or whining about how we lost since I agree that we shouldn’t be in such a situation with Akron. But, this game cannot pass without us having some comments about this topic.
Agreeing that (in a perfect world) a game with Akron shouldn’t come down to the last play is not an acceptable justification for incompetence by the officials at the game. Isn’t a reviewable spot of the ball in a game-deciding situation EXACTLY the kind of circumstance that has instituted an instant-replay system in college football?
Don’t misunderstand my expectations of the ACC officials who are generally considered to be the worst of the major conferences in America. I would truly NEVER expect college football officials to have the balls and the fortitude to actually over-ruled the play. When the obvious goal and focus of college football is to make the game as short as possible then you can’t expect folks to sit around and spend time doing due diligence.
But, since the officials were so quick to call a touchdown for the Zips then you know that they would have never deemed such a picture as “overwhelming video evidence” to repeal the call. (Oh…wait…unless, of course, the game was NC State @ UNC-CH and they would have had no problem over turning the game changing touchdown).
Even AFTER that picture, and a host of others on the internet, retiring ACC coordinator of football officials Tommy Hunt said that he is satisfied that referees made the correct call on Akron’s game-winning touchdown Saturday against N.C. State. (Link)
I think that it bothers me more that the play wasn’t even reviewed than it does that the play wasn’t overturned.
Update @ 10:25am
Nice comments from the Fayetteville Observer:
But it doesn’t matter whether the knee of Akron running back Dennis Kennedy hit the ground before the ball broke the plane of the end zone or not. If there’s a replay system in effect and a game-deciding score on the final play happens, it SHOULD be reviewed. Otherwise, what’s the point of having such a system?
In other words, don’t leave any doubt in anyone’s mind that you got it right. In that respect, the system failed Saturday, because a lot of people left Carter-Finley Stadium with doubt in their minds.
(2) Greensboro News & Record comments:
If this had been our last play against Ohio St or Tennessee instead of Akron I’ll bet the response would have been different and deafening.
^ EXACTLY!!
Does anyone know the rule here? Is an elbow on the ground the same as a knee on the ground?
SFN: elbow is most definitely the same as the knee
^ good question
From what I understand, the play was looked at, but the crew didn’t have this angle. It’s terrible, just adds insult to injury. I really do feel badly for this team. Yes, we should be 2-0. Of course, we must improve quickly or this season will go downhill fast. Thanks for the post.
Yes, it is. Good article in the N&R on it. There is no excuse whatsover for no review of this play. Stuff like this is why Swofford and his lackies aren’t trusted. (You have to ask yourself, if this was UNC-Ch losing on the last play to a non-conference team what would Swoffies and Hunt’s reaction be.)
chop — I know the answer to that question without asking it. This wouldn’t be tolerated in Chapel Hill. There would be outrage from numerous talking heads. I hope our athletics department is working behind the scenes to have the referees involved sanctioned. (although I’m afraid I know the answer to that also)
hahaha Lee Fowler try to sanction a referee!?!?!?!?! THAT is funny!
very disturbing picture. my question, is why DIDN’T the officials have this angle?! this was a televised game, camera’s EVERY where… They should ALWAYS have a camera on BOTH sides of an endzone on a play like that. no matter what.
can someone please give me Lee Fowlers email address so I can at least feel good about trying to communicate my feelings about this… I think Fowler needs to stand up for his FANS at some point… his fans, his players, his coaches(who we all know he adores), EVERYONE. why is he always so quiet?
“From what I understand, the play was looked at, but the crew didn’t have this angle.”
I don’t believe that. I was watching the bonus coverage on ESPN and listening to the radio. When Gary Hahn was talking about a review, I didn’t see what the problem was. Looked like he got in just fine to me. But then they showed the reverse angle and all of a sudden, I saw what they were talking about. There was a perfect camera angle showing the runner as he approached the end zone.
Jeff: I was exactly the same way!
That photo that is being posted is a screen-capture, isn’t it? Not a still-photo?
At the very least, it warranted a review. I don’t know if they would have had enough evidence to warrant an overturn, but there certainly should have been a review.
This is the first I’ve seen of that picture. That is unbelievable and makes the referee’s quick departure inexcusable. I’m not going to whine about losing because of it, that happens, but to make a bee line for the exits only to come back and make a half hearted stab at calling the play as stands on the field, it’s just not right.
Definitely would have changed all aspects and attitudes for the season and on this site anyway.
From a “human emotion” standpoint, of course there would be more rage if we had played a great game against a quality foe, to lose on a questionable call. In a sense, it IS easier to take when your opponent outplayed you and really desrved to win (as long as the opponent isn’t UNC).
I agree with the position that the real outrage (if true) is if the play was not actually reviewed. In the game thread, I posted “Review?” because it was damned close on the live look. Admittedly, when I saw the real-time replay on TV, it looked like he got in. And it does take indisputable visual evidence to overturn the call. I’m not sure they could have got that based on the camera angles and time they had to work with.
But I did expect to see the refs blow the whistle and keep the teams from leaving the field until the play was reviewed. Although the game would be over regardless, it definitely changes the psychology when the players and coaches are in the tunnel.
Rule 4, Section 1, Article 3b
Alive ball becomes dead and an official shall sound his whistle
or declare it dead:
b.When any part of the runner’s body, except his hand or foot, touches the
ground or when the runner is tackled or otherwise falls and loses possession
of the ball as he contacts the ground with any part of his body,
except his hand or foot. (Exception: The ball remains alive when an
offensive player has simulated a kick or is in position to kick the ball
held for a place kick by a teammate. The ball may be kicked, passed or
advanced by rule) (A.R. 4-1-3-I).
Watching the Clemson-BC game, there were FIVE official-iniated instant reply reviews in the 2nd half alone, and this crew didn’t care enough to even review the game-deciding play once? (I highly doubt the official statement that the play was looked at, but the crew didn’t have this angle)
Reviewing the picture further, the elbow may not be down, the shadows may be making it appear as if it is though. Either way, he would had to have extended his arm straight out at that very split second to make it a TD.
SFN: Agree with that. But, the “may or may not be down” part of that statement is EXACTLY why there should have been a review.
I’m going to throw out a conspiracy theory that instant replay was not instituted to get the calls right, but to give TV networks the chance to throw in a few more comercials per game
Go to gopack.com, and hit the link to the AD department. Lee’s e-mail is there. When the coaching search was going on, I got a few replies, mostly generic stuff like “thanks for the input, gopack”. I think I got one genuine reply, to an e-mail.
I listened to the radio broadcast and the officials called a TD and ran off the field. The radio announcers were surprised they ran off the field so fast.
Were these ACC refs? I always thought in non-conference games the refs are from the visiting teams conference.
Well, there was a gasp on the jumbotron from the folks in Carter Finley when the showed the replay. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THEM NOT REVIEWING THIS PLAY. IT IS THIS TYPE OF INCOMPETENCE DEMONSTRATED ON A WEEK IN WEEK OUT BASIS BY OFFICIALS THAT OUTRAGES ME TO NO END. The refs calling a TD, then running off the field was simply absurd, it should be surprising that Tommy Hunt and Swofford are defending it (but of course, it’s not.)
SFN: You mean that they actually showed a controversial replay on the C-F screen? That is a first!
You can’t blow this off due to the opponent being Akron or any “we shouldn’t have been in this position” stuff…
Even the best teams—which we’re not—have challenging situations against lesser teams, and one play, one game, can make such a difference in the rest of your season…
We are not going to win or even in be in the National Title race, but how many times, in basketball March Madness for example, have you seen a team narrowly escape a lesser program on a final play and have a nice run after that??
Look at FSU, they are still in the Title hunt and won’t remember the Troy State game since they won it, especially if they run the table, but what if they had lost on a questionable play at the end?? All of their momentum and hopes for a Title season would have been crushed…
We are no FSU, but the stakes were still high for what we could have reasonably accomplished this year. So. Miss. was always going to be a tough game with the real possibility for a loss, now we go down there 1-1 instead of 2-0—big difference—with BC and FSU to follow.
That one play, that one outcome, makes a huge difference in the rest of our season…We are not a good team, and we haven’t played well, but we are fighting for respectability. Staying out in front at 2-0, 2-1 or 3-0, 2-2 or 3-1 or 4-0, etc. was so important…Now we are in worse trouble than before…
Those refs should be hung for not reviewing the last play of a game like that where, in fast motion, there were questions about the knee even before the elbow. It would be the same if the roles were reversed and Akron was possibly screwed out of a big win. It’s a joke the way the refs ran off the field like that in a game ending situation…It was not a National Title game, but every team in the NCAA—Akron and NC State included—deserve the same importance given to “getting it right” as a higher stakes game would…Especially after all of the bonehead calls that refs have been shown to make over the years…A little review you !@#$% refs…
^ Good points
I was at Jax’s Sports Bar on Gorman(they have ESPN U for those who may wonder next time this situation comes up) watching the game, and I thought it weird that teams/refs got off the feild so quick… I just figured it was part of beer and emotional drain that made it seem that way. redfred is right, there is a possiblity that he did extend just in time… but that play needs to be reviewed EVERY TIME. even if we were scored the TD.
I’d prefer to see a full cycle of pictures — not one shot. Film replay in slo mo would be best.
“SFN: You mean that they actually showed a controversial replay on the C-F screen? That is a first!”
Ain’t that the truth. I still don’t get how the out come of dog races are more closely scrutinized than Division 1A football games. It’s somewhat unusual for the last play of a college football game to decide the outcome - everyone on the field, everyone watching the game understood this. The refs should have had it in the front of their mind that if anything was even close, they would review the play. This is really making me angry.
Funny line I like: ” I knew we were in trouble in the 3rd quarter when the ref said, “Time out, North Carolina”.”
It’s my understanding that every play is reviewed by someone in the booth. Then, if they find something that needs to be looked at further they buzz the officials. The officials on the field never view the replays at all. Everything is handled by the replay official.
The other key thing to remember is the term “indisputable video evidence.” That is the only way that a play will be over turned from the call on the field. I cant tell 100% from that picture that his elbow is actually down or that the tip of the ball hasn’t already crossed the line. Can you?
The officials on the field didn’t run off the field very quickly, I watched them and they stayed there for a good minute or more. I think the replay official reviewed the play, realized there wasn’t “indisputable video evidence” and didn’t buzz the officials.
At the risk of being accused of being “Polly Anna�, let’s not concede the season before we play it. We have had decent years when we were not heavy with talent. Stone’s biggest problem may be a lack of confidence and “playing not to lose�. We have a lot of new folks and people in new positions. They are going to get better……. if they believe in themselves, they may get a lot better.
“SFN: Agree with that. But, the “may or may not be downâ€? part of that statement is EXACTLY why there should have been a review.”
I don’t know how it appeared in person, but the radio broadcast highlighted the fact that the officials pulled a quick Elvis impersonation, and already and had already left the stadium before the band had even finished playing.
I agree SFN. I had stated such it in an earlier post on this thread.
I think that that picture, which I’ve seen is pretty conclusive (to me, and many, it appears that his elbow is clearly on the surface of the field without the ball being across the plane)–but the shocking thing about the refs running into the tunnel before being buzzed is that they can’t receive the signal from the booth if they are beneath the stands in their locker room.
As for for2n8son’s comments, I know Marcus Stone, he does not have a “problem” with lack of confidence. I’m just sure that Chuck instructed Trestman to “not lose” the games against ASU and Akron, which is far different from him saying “go win” these games. But I think the biggest positive to take from this game is that Marcus played as good a fourth quarter as any I’ve seen by an NC State QB, especially considering some of the plays called for him (option on 4th and 1, for example–which probably should have been reviewed, as we had the first on that one).
Yes, the box score says we lost–and yes, we did win if you look at some replays. But things to consider for the next stretch of games are that Chuck has shown that he can motivate a team to bounce back from adversity, and we have a quarterback that can go out and perform well enough to win a game! This should give us a ton of confidence for the coming weeks!
“This should give us a ton of confidence for the coming weeks!”
A “TON” you say? That is surely pushing that little white envelope beyond belief.
Let’s see how we bounce back next week. It is the coach’s jobs to rebuild that confidence, and motivate after a crushing loss. If we destroy USM, case closed for me.
it should give us SOME… I would not say TON.
but I do agree with hammondo in that Stone does not suffer from a lack of confidence… nor is he a bad QB AT ALL… He just has a problem of not being able to play well if he is not comming from behind. Seeing how many of the teams on our schedule will most likely get a lead from the start, we should really see how well Marcus can proform.
-that aside, on a funny note- I have a freind who has a class with Stone and one of the LBers… apparently Stone’s chair broke in the middle of class and put him on his ass. thats a big QB!!
Just kidding above.
It seems the pass worked when playing catch up and when necessary in the fourth quarter. That should be proof that catching up may not be all that necessary if the passing game is mixed in and becomes more evident from the get go.
Take a minute to call. Emails are useless. Even if the elbow is not on the ground in that picture it is closer to the ground than the ball is to the end zone making it impossible for the ball to cross before the elbow touched. Just seems like we never get the calls.
cthdi-
I agree that we rarely get the calls. Most people give the home team 1 TD for playing at home. However, based on games I’ve seen her for the last few years, we get no calls when the play is a close one. It’s almost as though the Refs get tired of the fans chanting “B-S” after disputed calls and look for ways to dun us. Probably my paranoia but the ball definitely isn’t bouncing our way lately.
It’s been going on for the 30 years I can remember watching State. I don’t say this because I’m a State fan. I’m a Cowboys fan too and I never say Dallas doesn’t get calls. You either are respected by the officials or you aren’t. State clearly is not.
Lee G Fowler
Athletics-Director and Staff
Director of Athletics
Phone: 919-515-2109
Fax: 919-515-3624
lee_fowler@ncsu.edu
wonder if Lee has thought about installing “in-pylon” cameras yet? That would make the “we don’t have that angle” excuse baseless when playing at Carter-Finley. Heck, if they’re radio-transmitted, NC State could take them on the road…especially to Chapel Hill
“I think the replay official reviewed the play, realized there wasn’t “indisputable video evidenceâ€? and didn’t buzz the officials.”
First I think the replay offical buzz when the review starts and not after he has reached a decision. I can picture him grabbing his stuff and heading out the booth to get to a family quting.
Second, the field officials never knew the play was being reviewed or they would have held the teams on the field.
Third I was watching it on espn bonus coverage and looked like he got in.
But an offical was right on the goal line with a good view and should have
at least noticed that the TD was questionable. In fact don’t think the offical on the gaol line called the TD.
Fourth, the play was not reviewed or an announcement would have been made that the play is under review.
Ater seening the frames imho looks like he was down. I wonder if CTC realized it? Doubt it from his angle unless he was watching the replay.
“
“wonder if Lee has thought”
Your question would have been a little more realistic if you would have stopped right there.
Frankly - I’d rather see a shot showing he was in - it would make this a lot easier to swallow.
^good point choppack
I was angry and in an alchoholic haze on Saturday, so what the hell.
Regarding Lee Fowler, Unfortunately we have an AD who is of the old school that you don’t criticize your employees publicly. He also is of the antiquated way of being of working inside the system. While public braying will never be Fowlers style, don’t assume because he isn’t “big-talking” in the media that he isn’t doing anything.
Puclicly embarrassing or taking Swofford or Hunt to taks would soothe the StateFanNation, but it would do nothing positive for NCSU. So go ahead and take your shots at Fowler and make your chicken-shit accusations that demonstrate how little you know of how administrators work. Mean time consider this: not AD worth having would perform his job in the manner many here would like to see our AD do.
After the sunglasses and clown shoes incident last year, the Boos & Disturber reported Fowler’s black Crysler having been seen parked outside the Murphy Football Center. When asked what he had to say to Coach Amato, Fowler said it was a routine visit… yada yada yada. Do you think for a minute that it was a routine visit? I don’t and neither did the reporter but that’s all he had to report.
Let’s all send Lee Fowler an e-mail insulting him, criticising the job we think he’s doing, and in general blasting the shit out of him for being restained in his public criticism of Swofford and Hunt.
For those of us who think Amato’s W/L record makes no difference to Fowler, how thoughtless is that. While some of us secretly and some not so secretly wish Chuck would fail miserably this year, Fowler is FOR every coach under contract at NCSU. It is the only way for an AD to be. It is the AD’s job to do whatever he can to insure a coach’s success. Anything less could and should warrant immediate dismissal.
IMNSHO Chuck is doing the right thing by moving on, at least that’s what he says he’s doing. Nothing, absolutely nothing will change the outcome of this game.
I also find it interesting that the only really successful coach/talking head on ESPN wasn’t nearly as critical of Amato as some of the assholes who have never tried to build a program up from severe mediocrity.
The picture on the jumbotron of the penultimate play seemed to show that the QB’s body was vertical when his knee hit the ground and he fell forward after he was down. It was my understanding that replay was to be used to insure correct ball placement in critical situations. If that is a critical situation, what is? Anybody know what the review rule is?
I’m just logging on and responding again from Saturday. Another key aspect to a lack of review on the play is the complete absence of referees at the conclusion on the game. ESPNews picked up the coverage from ESPNU, and I couldn’t see ONE official after that touchdown. In fact, I didn’t see a referee signal a touchdown. Did anyone else? Finally, the referees in college football are among the worst of any sport, so I’m not completely surprised by their missing key calls in late game situations. System needs an overhaul BADLY, and this is the first year of its existence. Sad isn’t it?
Come on now Wolfpack4ever, throwing darts at Lee Fowler is like making fun of a crabby old teacher english teacher in school. It may not be the brightest thing to do, but it’s fun.
What kills me is that the ACC is one of the best football power conferences in the nation and yet I swear to Heaven above the officials must be some of the worse in the land. I’m not just talking about this past game but across the board for all games. Remember the new rule that ACC refs introduced at Ohio State? The one bounce interception rule? This conference needs to upgrade its officials badly or more disasters like Saturday’s are sure to follow!
Wolfpack4forever
“Fowler is FOR every coach under contract at NCSU. It is the only way for an AD to be. It is the AD’s job to do whatever he can to insure a coach’s success. Anything less could and should warrant immediate dismissal.”
While agree with a lot of the things you say, I can’t quite hold with you on that on one. Is it better to just tell a coach you’re behind him 110% and let him go on his merry way, or does there come a time when the AD, being the man in charge, possibly needs to intervene with some necessary advice for the people he is supposedly in charge of? That advise could come in advance or at the onset of possible trouble brewing. It would also of course be nothing personal, just something in the best interest of the university and all of it’s supports first and foremost. That would instead of putting the interest of the employee and tight knit little group first, and in disregard of the consequences for the university and all of it’s supporters.
Just a simple question.
redfred2 Says: Just a simple question.
I think if you had read a little further instead of responding to your knee-jerk reaction to something said favorably about LF…
“After the sunglasses and clown shoes incident last year, the Boos & Disturber reported Fowler’s black Crysler having been seen parked outside the Murphy Football Center. When asked what he had to say to Coach Amato, Fowler said it was a routine visit… yada yada yada. Do you think for a minute that it was a routine visit? I don’t and neither did the reporter but that’s all he had to report.”
My contention in all my post regarding Lee Fowler is that he is operating in the manner expected of an administrator by the people who hold him to account.
I wonder if the countless critics of LF realize that with the institutional controls established after Valvano’s ADship, he CANNOT fire a coach without the Chancellors approval. Sad but true. Is it known and disregarded in our joyous engagement in mudslinger and character assasination of LF.
But LF is an easy target, right? He is like the big kid in school that everybody picks at because he won’t hit back. I don’t mind any legitimate criticism of LF but the bullshit zingers that have no legitimate grounds, get to me at times.
I know I am pissing off a large part of this list with my defending the defenceless LF. It’s my karma.
When will one of these calls go our way? Gopack says it was the same ref as the TA touchdown that was overruled at Chapel Hill. You should post that refs address on here so we can send him our thoughts.
so Wolfpacker4ever what your REALLY saying is that we should be bitching about teh Chancellor and not Fowler himself… cause after all, it is the Chancellor who had to approve a Sendek or even a possible Fowler firing?!
=)
I’m puzzled about the “we didn’t have that angle” BS about the video. What, they couldn’t look at the freakin’ Jumbotron?
Oh that’s right! The refs were already off the field. Silly me! La la la!
“After the sunglasses and clown shoes incident last year, the Boos & Disturber reported Fowler’s black Crysler having been seen parked outside the Murphy Football Center. When asked what he had to say to Coach Amato, Fowler said it was a routine visit… yada yada yada. Do you think for a minute that it was a routine visit? I don’t and neither did the reporter but that’s all he had to report.�
Once again there 4ever, I do not doubt the immediate and punctial nature of that all important visit to C Amato’s office, it involved, and was about…
A P P E A R A N C E S.
If that was the same ref that screwed up the win in Chapel Hill, I think I recall that he had a “trail of bad calls” even before that. Can someone confirm that is the case as I remember that being said a few days after that game.
redfred2 Says:
Once again there 4ever, I do not doubt the immediate and punctial nature of that all important visit to C Amato’s office, it involved, and was about…
A P P E A R A N C E S.
redfred2, his job is not to drop in and tell his coaches how to coach, that’s for the experts here on StateFanNation.
It could have been about appearances. Many loyal State fans are concerned about how anyone associated with the university represents the school. Not a lot different than my concern for how my employees appear to the public — professional or ragtag. What’s your point?
^Wolfpack4ever- I guess you didn’t go back to Vitale thread. I have tried in more subtle ways but here we go again…
My point is this, the job is to coach and to be damned good at it. My point is that that is what these guys are hired for, not to be the good will ambassadors and the ultimate symbol of NC State University. My point is that these guys are supposed to be developing the kids, who put their trust in them, to a higher competency level year in and year out. Not for appearance sake, not for the sake of their own job security, but for one single reason, the kid’s sake. I do not have much of a complaint about CA with respects to individual development, but the former BB coach, who you also defend to the hilt, I will detest from here on out for that one simple fact. It was supposed to be about the kids, not all about a self serving theory. But that seems all that is important in your mind and the mind of the of the AD you also so adamantly defend. Therefore the hot bothered rush to quell the wardrobe debacle. Just keep up the proper outward appearances. To hell with the rest of it.
There is a job to be done, it doesn’t always require proper ediquette or bowing down in order to shape public opinion. Fowler needs to expect more, demand more, and not let up until he gets it. I can’t ever see that happening.
As much as many hate to admit it, this school’s reputation is bluecollar, and in the good ol’ days we absolutely thrived on it. It’s become way too prim and proper for it’s own good now.
The instant replay system wants to ensure they get every play right, and the teams involved have everything at stake and no qualms about the extended length of games. As a selfish “never could be out there doing it myself” viewer I am torn. I know what it means to all the participants but I can’t stand watching a game that can last as long as a baseball game or a round of golf w’ George H.W. Bush. This rule, BCS computers, and they ovwertime crap have made College Football lesser for doing to much, IMHO.
ACC Coordinator of Officials Tommy Hunt:
“We don’t count on still pictures. They are not dependable…A running picture is much more valuable than a still photo.” Hunt said the officials have the ability to look at a play frame-by-frame if necessary.
Why would you want to look at a video frame-by-frame if still pictures are not dependable?
redfred2 Says:
I can’t ever see that happening.
Redfred, it is likely that you can never see that happening. Why? Because what you want to see will never be done in the public view. We, you, I and StateFanNation will never know what LF is doing. What ever it is it is being done as it should be done, in private.
Wolfpack4ever
I see you like to pick a certain sentence or phrase to avoid answering the to the total aspect of my posts. I guess what I am saying is that all of the pride and “sunshine’ that you placing all over the athletics department at NCSU was deserved in it’s day. It just isn’t right now, and being blind to the contributing factors isn’t helping anything one bit.
Back to reality. I take it that the picture is just that, a single still frame. If not it should be fairly easy to tell how the elbow/arm moved in relation to rest of the player’s body. Did it stop moving downward, bounce off the turf, or what? It’s not a TD at the split that photo(?) was taken either way.
I don’t know how they can say that “every play is looked at” while the refs call the TD and then hurry off the field…what, was the guy in the booth gonna make the ref’s run back out onto the field? Then they would have looked even more inept than they already do.
“more inept” than they do,…..say about right now? I don’t think there’s much of a possibility there.
It was a close call, you can’t high tail it out of the stadium and then deny that it was ever questionable to begin with.
packpigskinfan23 Says:
so Wolfpacker4ever what your REALLY saying is that we should be bitching about teh Chancellor and not Fowler himself… cause after all, it is the Chancellor who had to approve a Sendek or even a possible Fowler firing?!
I’m afraid so. As I understand it with institutional controls the buck stops with the Chancellor. For all we know and we don’t really know, Fowler might agree with some of what we say here — although I doubt he is for a public lynching. Firing Fowler puts us in no better place than we are now with regard to our desires for the AD to act.
redfred2 Says:
“I guess what I am saying is that all of the pride and “sunshine’ that you placing all over the athletics department at NCSU was deserved in it’s day. It just isn’t right now, and being blind to the contributing factors isn’t helping anything one bit.”
First, I am not “placing pride and sunshine,” I am against public lynching, against blaming LF for everything that happens. I am for holding him accountable and he is responsible for the athletics department like a General is responsible and accountable for the entire army and all it’s actions.
further: “being blind to the contributing factors” In other words people who don’t agree with you are blind and your interpretation of contributing factors — which by the way I would love to see or read about here and not more opinion that LF is a dufus — is the truth.
I can guarantee that LF is not going to operate in anyway differently than any Group VP in a major corporation. No public “big-talking”, no public airing of any laundry, every effort to cause success, etc.
Most of us myself included, are clueleess as to the way the university and athletics department works. I trust that MAF knew what was going on and she could have fired LF and I never heard or read one word about that happening. Now it may have been about to happen but we would never read about it in the paper or on EDSBS.
redfred and others, I just think we could have more meaningful discussions if we were in the reality of the way it works and doesn’t work at NCSU.
redfred2 Says:
“the former BB coach, who you also defend to the hilt”
You will be hard-pressed to find any of my defending of the coaching job that HS did. I do argue that running HS out on a rail (or anyone for the matter) is the way of NCSU. I speculate on LFs possible part in his ending up at ASU. I suffered and groaned for the last 5 years. I say it is too bad he couldn’t make the adjustment to a style of play that was exciting and fun to watch. But I assert the blame for his being in the postition he was in, is NOT and never was due to LF doing a poor job. All LF did was not publicly crucify HS for failing to win big. Why is that? Herb did the job he was hired to do and when he did that job and did it well, the ante got upped by me, you and most every other WPC member except the ones who knew LF could not fire HS.
I have a problem roasting LF for that which he had no power to do. Yes, go after the one responsible, the Chancellor, not the AD.
I don’t like the appearances of the job search conducted by LF. I certainly don’t like the likely story told about those appearances. What I know is that LF is well connected in basketball circles and he “entertained” the idea of hiring several different people, some I could stomach coaching at NCSU. What I know is that all is not as it appears so there is a very distinct possibility that there could have been some serious poker playing going on. LF could not have gone after Sidney Lowe early on — no degree, no college experience, etc. So while we will never know as long as LF is at NCSU or Sidney Lowe is coaching here, what actually went on.
Wolfpack4ever
I think we need to “get a room” as they say. I’d say you and I have probably been occupying a little too much space on SFN lately.
“I do argue that running HS out on a rail (or anyone for the matter) is the way of NCSU.”
I am sure as hell not anyone to point out other’s typos, but I think you meant to insert a “not” up there in that statement. You say LF did this, HS did that, and I agree with some of what you’re saying. But I’m talking about a constant, not something that occurred once upon a time and years ago. HS was hired to right the ship. He did that. He was damned glad that the athletics department of NC State University, with it’s ACC and National Championship banners already hanging proudly for every to see, saw fit to give a very young and unproven coach from a small university in Ohio the opportunity to coach in the best basketball conference in the land. If anything HS owed NC State all along in the scenario, but it was never the other way around. Either way, there was never a guarantee of a free ride after a certain amount of time, or a decade long contract involved.
You are practically admitting that NC State’s own old school and gentlemanly policies of sticking by your coaches, not asserting pressure or demanding different when it is absolutely apparent that change is necessary, is self-defeating and why we’re struggling now. But then you go back and assert that the only correct and proper way for the powers at be to handle a coaching situation now, and in the future, is exactly the same way they have done it for eons.
Well, which is it? Can’t be both.
This just PROVES that we, Wolfpack Nation, are NOT paranoid NOR are we conspiracy theorists…..WE ARE RIGHT!!! Not only was this call WRONG (as shown by the plethora of photographic evidence) but, correct me if I’m wrong, this was the same line judge that blew (pun intended) the call in ‘04 at carolina. While there may not be a vast conspiracy to screw the ‘Pack, this ONE official (reprimanded FIVE TIMES PREVIOUS according to reports) seems to always find a way to screw us at the worst possible moments.
LOL
redfred, Maybe we do take up a lot of space here. But you know, as we go back and forth we may be identifying a real dilemma.
redfred2 Says:
“You are practically admitting that NC State’s own old school and gentlemanly policies of sticking by your coaches, not asserting pressure or demanding different when it is absolutely apparent that change is necessary, is self-defeating and why we’re struggling now. But then you go back and assert that the only correct and proper way for the powers at be to handle a coaching situation now, and in the future, is exactly the same way they have done it for eons.
Well, which is it? Can’t be both.”
Not for eaons, just since the advent of institutional controls. But fred, in a paradox you do have it both ways. Its not working and there is nothing to be done as long as the Chancellor doesn’t condone a firing or a vacancy opens up. Either could happen if we have many more gaffs like yesterday.
Nobody, absolutely nobody will be fired as NCSU football Head Coach going 5 for 6 to bowls, even if they are they are in some cases, the toilet bowl.
Your posts indicate that you are confusing my approving of the process with approving the man (in Herb’s case, but not Chuck case ’cause I think he is as good as is available to us.
Even with all his coaching shortcomings, we were a good QB from having a very good team last year and a good team this year. IMNSHO our best shot at a “good” QB this year is Stone. When we give it up on Stone, there is no going back. What little confidence he has will be shot. Lightly recruited Daniel Evans is not the man. Apparently Burke is not ready yet. The meat of our schedule would eat a QB alive who didn’t know the offense and who is 3 months removed from HS. (Please don’t insult me by bringing up PR.)
Wolfpack4ever is absolutely right….let Stone continue to play and continue to grow. Burke won’t start until Stone is long gone, maybe not even then.
Time will tell. As we have all seen in the past, as he plays, Stone gets better–pull him now and that’s it, he’s screwed for good from a confidence standpoint. HE IS NOT, AND NEVER WILL BE PHILIP RIVERS—-NO ONE WILL. We just have to hope for his success, and stand behind our team regardless.
Hey, I’ve never said a word about giving up anything on Stone, except for possibly the limited confidence that the coaching staff has shown in him through their own play calling.
I will say that sometime in a majority of the games that there needs to be a series or two run by a potential up and comer. That is purely for the sake of experience and the future. Stone needs to be the man, but there is no guarantee that he, or any other FOOTBALL player, will be there when needed.
Back to the BS
You sound as if you’re confusing my statements as coming from someone who wants to fire the whole planet. Not so. I’m saying there is plenty of wiggle room in between the hiring of someone, and the eventual fir….I started to say firing but that is not an option…and the eventual departure, totally proper term, to be pro active and aid to that university EMPLOYEE in ways that will help them achieve satisfactory results while they toe the proverbial line in the meantime.
The problem I have is with the line itself. I’d call it Fowler’s and the ‘in crowd’s’ yellow brick road. I think don’t that their perception of where that path is supposed to lead is anywhere close to the direction that the majority Wolfpack faithful want to be heading. Theirs is more like a prim and proper little circular drive that we’ve been circuling ourselves dizzy on trying to find a ramp off for too long already.
The good ol boys keep holding to the ideals and loyalties of the past while the rest of the college athletics world blurs straight ahead and further on out of site. This is not 1960, 1970, or whenever, times have changed. People don’t stay in the same jobs forever in anything anymore, much less coaching. It’s all about performance and constant improvement these days. Coaches have changed, kids have changed also, someone has to work harder to keep them focused and committed to the big picture more than ever before. That is the AD’s job.
I think that if HS had been let go after 5 years he would have better appreciated the opportunity he was given. But he instead became a malcontent and firmly entrenched system that didn’t have rewards or repercussions either way. That is all that this group of NC State administrators, while continuing on down their familar path, will ever be capable of producing.
Back to the photo.
I think TA was closer to the goal line on the final play at Ohio State 3 yrs ago. By these standards, TA had a “clear” touchdown.
The TA UNC debacle was different. Not sure, but I think his knee was down before he crossed the line at Kenan. What stunk was the ref immediately signaled TD and the points were on the scoreboard only to be taken off. I guess if that had been the very last play we would have won—surely the refs would have disappeared instantly like last Saturday.