Davis Won’t Play for State

Since most of the readers of StateFansNation (“The graduate level NC State Website”) are a little more experienced in the real world than the readers of other sites…let’s play a little “real world” hypothetical this morning —-

Let’s assume for a moment that you own a company.

One of your account officers makes a key sale for the company. In the sale the new client signs a contract committing the client to provide certain services for the next four years. You are restricted by law to having less than fifteen clients at any one time, so the commitment of the new client is very important.

After the new sale is signed, sealed and delivered and you have begun making arrangements and planning around the new client, the account officer who signed the deal accepts leaves your company to accept a new job with a competitor.

The new client, who signed his/her contract with YOUR COMPANY – not the account officer – suddenly claims that they are uneasy with their agreement and would like to take their business elsewhere.

Question: As a prudent manager of your business, do you allow the new client to freely ignore his commitment and simply waltz into the horizon without exercising any of the penalty clauses availability to you in the signed contract?

FORMER NC State recruit, Larry Davis, has decided to forego his commitment to NC State and join Seton Hall and their new coach, Bobby Gonzalez. (Link)

In the summer of 2005, the 6-foot-3 shooting guard who played at New York’s Christ the King High School committed to N.C. State, the first school he had visited.

“I really don’t know coach Lowe,” Davis said. “He’s not going to be here in June. It’s just not good going into a new thing like that, not knowing what you’re getting into.”

Davis is a nice player who barely averaged 14 points a game in high school and was barely ranked around the #100 HS players in the country. A case could be made that if Larry Davis is playing signficant time for NC State in three or four years, then our program isn’t where it will need to be or where we hope that it will be.

The big issue around this situation now is NC State’s (yet to be determined) decision to grant Davis a full release or a partial release where he would be required to sit out a year before becoming eligible to play at Seton Hall. In recent years, the NCAA has been more lenient in allowing petitioning players to transfer without having to sit out a year.

But…from NC State’s perspective…Is there really a choice here?

OF COURSE State should only grant a partial release and make the kid have to go through the NCAA’s appeals process to be allowed to play immediately.

From State’s selfish perspective:

* The kid didn’t even afford Sidney Lowe the opportunity to meet with him face to face. (Does Seton Hall really have that many other kids right now to whom they are trying to give this extra scholarship?)

* Also, it was pretty evident, even mistakenly printed in local newspapers in New Jersey, that Seton Hall was illegally contacting Davis long before NC State granted him a conditional release to talk to other schools.

It is UNACCEPTABLE that NC State would support this kind of behavior from the kid and from Seton Hall by just rolling over and being complicit in this bullshit.

But, there is a lot more to this and Larry Davis.

Human beings react to incentives; give someone enough incentive or disincentive and you can create the behavior that you desire. (See Freakanomics). NC State MUST be smart enough here to signal to Dan Werner or Dennis Horner that DISINCENTIVE EXISTS FOR THEM TO CONSIDER BACKING OUT OF THEIR LETTERS OF INTENT.

Most schools do NOT give kids that sign with them a change of heart because of a coaching change a full release. NC State should not either. If they want to go so badly, then let them all know that they will have to go through the hassle, the time and the process and deal with the NCAA for a full release.

Basketball Recruiting General NCS Basketball

95 Responses to Davis Won’t Play for State

  1. Rick 05/26/2006 at 8:53 AM #

    I agree 100%. He should not get the full release and further more I would talk to the NCAA about Seton Hall contacting him if true.
    I hate to lose any recruit but I saw this guy play and he woudl be godo but not great. I am pretty sure he would have been recruited over.

  2. vtpackfan 05/26/2006 at 8:59 AM #

    I think your comments on running this program with hard nosed business ethics are warranted in this case. These are young men and need to learn lessons from their experiences from decisions they make on and off the court. With the latest situation involving Indianas new head coach, Kelvin Smpson, it might not be a bad time to report this issue to the NCAA. If one of our own slipped and made the same mistake in contacted a recruit when

  3. vtpackfan 05/26/2006 at 9:01 AM #

    …lost me there. Anyways, would we expect to be given any slack?

  4. class of 74 05/26/2006 at 9:02 AM #

    Our attitude seems to be let’s be as accomodative to the signees as possible. Whether this is a good policy is debatable but in the long run the reponsiblity of the loss of any of the signees should be layed at the doorstep of LF.

  5. jncope 05/26/2006 at 9:06 AM #

    I was also annoyed and surprised that Seton Hall would contact Davis even before he was granted a conditional release from State. I like coach Gonzalez but I think NC State should ask the NCAA to investigate and if Seton Hall violated the rules, then they should be punished. The early contact definitely gave them an advantage over state due to Sidney’s timeline.

    As far as the question of whether or not to grant a conditional release… that is a little more complicated. On the one hand, I fear that giving Davis a full release will encourage Werner to do the same. Knowing he would have to sit out a year would probably make Werner lean more towards State than he would otherwise. On the other hand, not granting Davis a full release smacks of bitterness. I tend towards giving him the full release and saying, “Best of luck to you. We will be fine without you.” I would probably let him sweat it out until Werner makes his decision though before granting him the full release.

  6. vtpackfan 05/26/2006 at 9:10 AM #

    With that said, I hope they do as you suggest and send the message that we take all our basketball operations serious. I wouldn’t go any further than that with dealing with the other to, unless the same conditions happen to occur. If they ask for a full release, even without meeting with Sidney, or his staff, then IMO we should grant it to them. Provided they haven’t committed rules infractions already. I don’t want any guys wearing red who don’t want to be here. It’s just that simple. I’d rather Lowe have to reach down our bench and play guy’s that Herb wouldn’t, then see Lowes first couple years tainted with guys that aren’t fully bought in.

  7. StateFans 05/26/2006 at 9:18 AM #

    How does it smack of ‘bitterness’? IT’S THE RULE. NOT making him go through the normal channels is actually altering the existing rule to make his life easier.

    Who the hell cares how “bitter” it looks? To whom does it look “bitter’?

    Why SHOULDN’T we be bitter? Kid signed, then talked to coaches while signed (which is ANOTHER CLEAR violation of the LOI that he signed), and now wants us to let him go without living up to anything that he committed to.

  8. burnbarn 05/26/2006 at 9:26 AM #

    furthering your business analogy….

    Does a minor have capacity to enter into a contract(LOI)?

  9. VaWolf82 05/26/2006 at 9:27 AM #

    Did I understand correctly that Davis’ AAU coach is now an assistant at Seton Hall?

  10. Mr O 05/26/2006 at 9:35 AM #

    I will play devil’s advocate here. I am torn on the issue as far as what we should do here.

    A head coach of a basketball program is a little more important than an account officer. If an account officer leaves a company, then the way that account is going to be handled will be the same. It may be a different person, but the structure of the deal is the exact same.

    When a coach changes, the structure of the deal changes significantly. Larry Davis agreed to come to NC State to play for Herb Sendek. Herb is more like an owner of a company as opposed to an account manager. Herb makes all his own decisions and runs things as he sees fit. With Sidney Lowe taking over, Sidney Lowe will run things as he sees fit. That means different offenses, different defenses, different practices, daily schedules, etc…..

    Essentially, our basketball program is now an entirely different company to do business with. More than the personal contact has changed, the entire deal has changed from what he originally agreed to do business with.

    This really is a tough issue and it will be a tough decision for our coach and administration.

    Herb Sendek left under heavy criticism. Many NC State peopl

  11. Mr O 05/26/2006 at 9:37 AM #

    Ignore the last sentence. I was going to make the counter-argument to those who will bring up that we didn’t fire Herb Sendek.

  12. BJD95 05/26/2006 at 9:37 AM #

    I think the LOI also requires a parent’s signature (due to the fact that it involves a minor).

    I think it’s easy to differentiate here – SH contacted Davis illegally, and he didn’t give Lowe a fair chance. Not giving Davis an unconditional release does not conclusively mean we would do the same to Werner and Horner…but we WOULD consider it.

    To me, that sends the correct signals.

  13. Mr O 05/26/2006 at 9:47 AM #

    LOI does require a parents signature. IIRC, I think Grundy got out of his LOI to Bradley because no parent signed his LOI. Something like that anyways.

  14. graywolf 05/26/2006 at 9:57 AM #

    Amen…..I fully agree. A contract is a contract, regardless. Either fully comply or accept the consequence.

  15. Lock 05/26/2006 at 10:00 AM #

    I gotta disagree here. Do we want someone on our team who doesn’t want to play for us? Personally, I don’t blame the kid. The rules are what they are, but who WOULDN’T feel uncomfortable when the team you signed with suddenly changes so much? I mean, it’s not like the account officer left here…it’s like the freaking CEO left. A head coach, not a recruiter. Plus, this is this kid’s future we’re talking about here. It’s ultimately his decision, and it’ll affect, potentially, the rest of his life.

    Sure, I hate to see him go, but again, I don’t blame him. As much as I love my team, what’s in this kid’s best interests comes first. And I also think that while you can make (and SFN has made) an argument showing the benefits of forcing the kid to go through the NCAA loops, I think it looks bad. I think it just as likely that if we show we’re going to be understanding about all this, it’d actually reflect POSITIVELY on our other signees.

    BTW, it looks bitter to me, and I do care. I say we take the PR high road, play the role of the nice guy, and be UNDERSTANDING. We changed head coaches. And while some may find it hard to believe, it is quite possible some of these kids signed BECAUSE of Sendek. If that’s the case here, I don’t know, I’m just throwing that out as a legitimate possibility.

    Either way, as someone else said: if they don’t want to be here, then let them go, and wish them well. They’ll be the ones regretting it in a few years.

  16. pekinpacker 05/26/2006 at 10:11 AM #

    I think we should wait until after July 1 before deciding whether or not to grant a full or conditional release. If we grant a full release now, it sends the wrong message to the other recruits.

  17. Sam92 05/26/2006 at 10:15 AM #

    i disagree with SFN on this one.

    if this were the NBA, I’d say fine, be hard-nosed about the commitment. but N.C. State is a university.

    it may be pie-in-the-sky, but I think that what makes college ball more fun than the NBA is that it’s amateur – as sophisticated as it is, there’s still a commitment on the university’s part to do what’s best for the players (even if they haven’t joined the team yet).

    being hard-nosed about the contract is not what’s best for Davis — letting him play where he feels he’ll be comfortable is. (also, I question the value of spending a scholarship and inevitable bad pr on effectively forcing a kid to play where he doesn’t want to).

    N.C. State should do the right thing and release Davis.

  18. RickJ 05/26/2006 at 10:19 AM #

    I would love to know the real mood of Harris & Towe after Davis made his decision. Are they extremely disappointed or OK to have the additional scholarship. One good thing is that the NCAA got rid of the rule limiting each recruiting class to five. This could come into play for us this Fall.

  19. cfpack03 05/26/2006 at 10:24 AM #

    Some of you guys don’t quite understand whats going on. We wouldn’t FORCE the kid on the court, and make him play for us. The question here is whether we give him FULL or PARTIAL release. Go back and read the description of these 2 terms. If we grant full release, essentially we null the contract, and he plays immediately for who ever he wants. If we grant partial release, it essentially means he breaks the contract and he must sit a year before playing for who ever he wants (unless the NCAA grants his appeal). We would never force a kid to play who doesn’t want to wear red.
    I agree 100% with SFN. If he wants to play for SH, then he breaks the contact and sits out a year, or makes an appeal.
    Commitments begin consequences, and understanding of this concept is lacking in this world today.

    A great post on was penned by swagger, see Swagger Link

  20. cfpack03 05/26/2006 at 10:27 AM #

    ^meant, commitment begats consequences

  21. Lock 05/26/2006 at 10:33 AM #

    No, I clearly follow what’s going on. What I said still stands. Partial release still looks bitter, is still unfair to the kid, etc etc. OBVIOUSLY we’d never force a kid to play who doesn’t want to play for us, but we still shouldn’t hold some sort of claim on any such kid either. I totally grasp the differences. What’s not being grasped is EXACTLY what Sam92 said. THis is college ball, not NBA ball. The closer the two become, the more I fear for the future of college ball. I can’t stand watching the ‘professionals’ of this sport.

    Yeah, commitments DO bring consequences, but when you TOTALLY change the situation on the kid, it’s downright heartless to assume that he’s just stuck. Oh, you signed to play for coach A and his style? Too bad, we’ve got coach B now, so you either play for him or you sit for a year and think about how naughty a boy you’ve been. You can’t have any fun.

    I’m sorry, I really would rather not be that jerk. I don’t think this is a case of accepting consequence…how should he have known we’d change coaches? Do non-student-athletes have to face some sort of academic penalty for switching colleges?

  22. Lock 05/26/2006 at 10:37 AM #

    And yes, I know that it clearly states that you’re signing up with a school, not a coach. I’m not sure how much focus is put on that during recruiting, though, and I’m not sure how fair a clause that is.

  23. GAWolf 05/26/2006 at 10:43 AM #

    Maybe I look at this from a perspective that’s too practical, but I say if the kid doesn’t want to honor his commitment then let him go. It’s like talking a girl into going out with after it’s evident she no longer likes you. You might be the nicest guy in the world and the other guy might be the scummiest mullethead on the block, but the fact of the matter is you’re not going to get much out of the girl and everyone knows you’re better off without her.

    We can hold these young men’s feet to the fire, but what do we gain? I say let all the Sendekian-Shooting-Forward-Guards go and let’s give those scholarships to some centers, guards, and forwards.

    Obviously I’d love to have some of these recruits, but the greater good of our program is much bigger than anyone of these kids.

  24. redfred2 05/26/2006 at 10:46 AM #

    I’m working and I don’t have time to read the other posts above mine right now. I said a few weeks back that Lee Fowler was allowing player contact with other schools well before any rules required and against Larry Harris’ understanding of NC State’s position on recruits. This do the right thing, regardless of what the rules say is permissable, above and beyond and uncalled for, nobility crap is really starting to chap my hide.

    Someone commented that the other schools would be upset if we didn’t allow contacts or the kid would become a problem child and that could back to bite us later on. I can’t remember where most of the players shipped out to when they left the Sendek camp, and it has had absolutely NO impact on NC State’s standings with other NCAA schools, NONE.

    I am really getting sick of this boy scout mentality and giving everyone else the upper hand in every situation when dealing with NCSU. I don’t care if Davis never got a minute on the court in four years, or was the star of every game. The fact is that Sidney Lowe wasn’t even given a chance before Davis was totally swayed by Gonzalez, and there is not one reason for it to have played out that way!

  25. redfred2 05/26/2006 at 11:07 AM #

    NOTICE: ALL FUTURE RECRUITS
    Sign with NC State today.
    Play with the university of choice your tomorrow.

    They won’t fight you over it, they are such a class act and such good guys, that they won’t challenge you when you break your word and forget your commitment.

    Typical.

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