In addition to this piece, another of SFN’s more respected local writers penned some greath thoughts regarding Sidney Lowe today that merits some attention and discussion.
The News & Observer’s Caulton Tudor compared the big gamble on Coach Lowe to the role of underdog that the 1983 National Champion Wolfpack. Tudor goes on to say:
my hunch is Lowe will eventually improve State’s program and have a long, successful run
Tudor proceeds to speculate more specifically about talent and re-hashes an old NC State internet debate of the last few years — “what if” former coach Herb Sendek had done a better job with his talent evaluation of just in-state players (not to mention out of state decisions like passing on Steve Blake for Cliff Crawford).
Tudor states:
In retrospect, Herb Sendek’s biggest problem was an inability to lure top-line talent. The most obvious red flag came when he couldn’t get Shavlik Randolph, a lifelong Wolfpack fan and the grandson of a school great, away from Duke. That was one of the few times Sendek and Duke went head-to-head over a target.
Improving State’s haul in North Carolina would make a big difference. Many of State’s best players were in-state finds — David Thompson, Tom Burleson and Phil Spence off the ‘74 national champions alone. Think of where the program might be today had Sendek signed Randolph, Eric Williams, Chris Paul, Anthony Morrow, Anthony King, David Noel and Reyshawn Terry.
In addition to the names Tudor referened, take a moment to think of what Herb Sendek’s NC State program could have been had Sendek not told ACC Player of the Year and NBA star Josh Howard that he wasn’t good enough for a scholarship at NC State but we would allow him to walk on?
Imagine NCAA Champion Chris Wilcox on a Wolfpack front line that would have overlapped with 7′0 Garner’s David West (Xavier)?
I wonder how this year’s NC State-Texas NCAA Tournament game would have looked if Big 12 Player of the Year, Raleigh’s PJ Tucker, was playing for the team from Raleigh?
Tudor inherently understands what many young NC State fans don’t because they haven’t experienced it — NC State’s program can be nationally successful by keeping North Carolina’s top local talent local in Raleigh.
In the 1970s and the 1980s, the core of the blueprint for NC State’s basketball success program was built on two key components:
(1) NC State was able to land a majority of the nationally relevant talent from North Carolina High Schools that didn’t sign with UNC-Chapel Hill.
History shows that it is relatively inconsequential to NC State’s overall success if Carolina lands the top in-state player (like Buzz Peterson, Michael Jordan, Curtis Hunter, Ranzino Smith, Brad Daugherty, Rashad McCants) as long as the Wolfpack is still signing the “next tier” of legitimate ACC players. Names like Burleson, Thompson, Spence, Shackleford, Washburn, Chucky Brown, Brian Howard, Kevin Thompson, Bryant Feggins, Nate McMillan, Alvin Battle and others (Dinky Proctor? George McClain?) served as heartbeats on the fantastic teams in the 1970s and 1980s.
Under Les Robinson and Herb Sendek, NC State moved away from its traditional model of landing the “best of the rest” in North Carolina. Wake Forest gladly stepped into the role and it wsn’t a coincidence that the Demon Deacons have simultaneously experienced the greatest 15 year period of excellence in its program’s history.
Since 1990, the Demon Deacons have basically “replaced” NC State as the destination for key local talent that historically made a tremendous impact playing in Reynolds Coliseum. Before 1990, State would have almost never missed on Rodney Rogers, Chris Paul, Craig Dawson, Eric Williams, Justin Gray and Josh Howard. Think of the impact that these stars have had in elevating Wake Forest’s program while NC State’s program (that once served as these players’ destination) floundered.
This whole NCHSAA-talent issue is one of the primary reasons that I scoff at the ‘experts’ that say State can’t be successful because of its proximity to Duke. Hell, State has had single seasons with more NC players on our roster than Duke has had in spans of a decade. Why does it matter how close we are to Duke if we have so rarely competed for talent against them? A more detailed look at the facts of the situation indicate that Wake Forest’s success actually has a stronger impact on NC State than Duke’s success. Forming this conclusion would take time, research, and some critical thinking skills that are all counter to skills of being a member of the national media.
(2) Of course, there was another key component to much of NC States 1970s and 1980s success — talent from the Washington, DC area.
Wolfpack greats like Kenny Carr, Hawkeye Whitney, Clyde Austin (Va), Thurl Bailey, Sidney Lowe, Dereck Whittenburg, Quinten Jackson, Bennie Bolton, and Rodney Monroe all called the area home. (Where was Kenny Matthews from?)
Where is Sidney Lowe from again?
Don’t forget about David West from Garner, who Sendek told wasn’t good enough to play in the ACC, but was welcome to walk-on. I believe he and Josh Howard were both at Hargrave at the same time.
Unbelievable
Jeff: You mean the David West that I said the following about in the middle of the piece?
Thank God someone actually understands this. You do NOT have to land every Michael Jordan. One or two never hurts but the next level of guys will make the TEAM work well. An entire team of those next level guys with a good coach are nearly unbeatable.
The Josh Powell example sums up Herb in a nutshell. How could you not recognize the talent that young man had? The Randolph example was such a slap in the face of Wolfpack fans it does not bear repeating here.
Good post! I have a couple of questions, though:
(1) Why does Les always get bashed so badly? Am I mistaken in my recollection that at his time at the helm the university hamstrung itself with some of the toughest academic restrictions in the nation among athletic scholarship-granting institutions? I thought a lot of talent passed State by then b/c they could go to better teams w/o as much academic pressure. Am I way off-base?
Jeff - you are only off-base if you think that I was ‘bashing’ Les by stating simple facts in this entry
(2) Similarly, I was also under the impression that Tucker’s exodus to TX rather than attend any UNC-system school was due to the now well-documented facts of the system’s more stringent requirements.
Jeff - what other good “UNC System” schools are there that were recruiting him and are worth going to?
I’m not disagreeing with you - just trying to clear some confusion up in my own head. It’s kind of ironic, though - Duke and WFU are thought of as prestigious institutions of learning, but being private they don’t have to reveal their standards for admittance for athletes. Maybe they have more wiggle room for athletes than the state schools…
Jeff - in the mid 1990s when Duke, Carolina and Wake were the top of the ACC…Carolina and Wake were ranked last in the ACC is average SAT scores on their roster. NC State was #1 in the ACC in average SAT scores and last in the ACC at the time. Just curious…did all of our ’sacrifice’ in those years really make that big of a difference to the rest of the world’s perception about NC State academics / athletics? Some people get crossed-up thinking that the athletics teams drive the perception of a school’s academics. Nothing could be further from the truth. Schools with high ranking academic programs seem to have no problem recruiting the dumber kids and passing them off as great students.
In an unrelated question, I’ve read in a couple places - most recently the Simon Says blog - that NBA coaches who have moved to college coaching positions have poor track records, but I can’t think of any examples. You guys are obviously sharp basketball minds. Can you help me out? The only coach I can think of is Larry Brown, who went from the NBA to KU and won a title - and of course got in some trouble too.
I think Coach Lowe’s value will be shown in helping land a few of the blue chippers as well as the second tier players. His NBA experience and his personality should be appealing to any player who has NBA aspirations and talent out of high school. This is why I am so excited about the staff that has been assembled. IMO, The tone of this post continued the conventional wisdom that we are somehow “second-tier” among our rivals in the Triangle. I think that is a mindset that needs to go. My hope and belief is that we will soon consider our basketball program “top notch” and first-tier” under Coach Lowe’s leadership.
Jeff - I don’t think that we are “second tier” compared to our rivals. What I was trying to prove was that not landing the top talent in the country & state of NC has historically created first tier programs.
wow all this talk about nc state basketball is getting us all giddy. keep the bytes coming, this site keeps all the hard core fans from getting famished on ncstate bball in the off-season…thx sfn
off-topic , but man, 3 things heavily on my mind, (in this order) is the status of:
1) simmons
2) wright
3) grant
I have heard “Dan” and “(waves)” credit Sendek’s offense as the major reason for Gavin Grants decision to play at NCSU??? I wonder about Grant to begin with, but seriously, on the other hand, just how many it turned away. Shavlik Randolph for sure, but how many players, named in that article, would have considered NCSU with a different coaching style in place? I have to believe quite a few.
This is going bust wide open! Stagnation and X’s and 0’s are a thing of the past. This is going be fun to play, and fun to watch, pure basketball excitement again. I don’t expect to set the world on fire right off the bat, but I do expect to enjoy watching players having fun and playing their asses off again.
I would advise Sidney Lowe to come right out of the gate in the first game with a “Princeton Style Offensive Set” using the “Pro Style Version” of course, to set the expectations real low. Hell, things could only get better for him after that.
No matter how good of a coach you are if you don’t get them you can’t coach them. At least that’s what my friend Lefty Driesell used to say. Over the past 40 years our talent pools have been: this state, DC and Metro NY.
It should be apparent to all with Coach Lowe’s ties he will have contacts in DC (home) and NY (Coach Ernie Myers). That leaves North Carolina, and if he uses the family theme and relies on Chucky Brown, DT, TB, Alvin Battle, Phil Spence, Corchiani etc. he should have the recruiting angle covered nicely.
With that being the case, we should see a marked improvement in our program and the days of hanging banners should return in the next few years.
The process was long and ugly but in the end this hire is the best thing to happen to our program in 16 years. Gosh that number 16 hurts to write but better days await that I’m certain.
LF was on Rivals Radio this morning basking in the media spotlight.
I only caught the tail end of the interview, but he is up to his old tricks. In attempting to explain the Herb Sendek situation, he continues to take an adversarial, if a bit softer, stance towards those who disagreed with him.
Basically stated that everyone who mattered supported and believed in Herb except the ‘internet fans’, as if that label somehow means they are not true red fans. To his, for lack of a better word, credit he did mention that it is the norm in sports for fans to want to reach the next plateau one the current one has been reached on a consistent basis.
I was a staunch Herb defender, but I still have no idea why on earth Lee Fowler feels compelled to attack any of his fans simply because of disagreement. Its not like they were vandalizing property or hurling batteries on the court. They were simply disagreeing. Lee needs to learn that when it comes to the fans: If you dont have anything nice to say, keep it to yourself.
I’ll try to fnid a link to the interview. It was pretty much a softball festival.
Awesome entry - The academic angle is the most compelling for me.
“Jeff - in the mid 1990s when Duke, Carolina and Wake were the top of the ACC…Carolina and Wake were ranked last in the ACC is average SAT scores on their roster. NC State was #1 in the ACC in average SAT scores and last in the ACC at the time. Just curious…did all of our ’sacrifice’ in those years really make that big of a difference to the rest of the world’s perception about NC State academics / athletics? Some people get crossed-up thinking that the athletics teams drive the perception of a school’s academics. Nothing could be further from the truth. Schools with high ranking academic programs seem to have no problem recruiting the dumber kids and passing them off as great students.”
This is the most important information I’ve read in a long time. Had Josh Howard, Chris Wilcox, David West & P.J. Tucker come to NC State – would they have been successful academically, particularly under the new APR system? This question has very little to do with the coach, it is an institutional one that doesn’t just affect athletes.
Wake maintained a terrific graduation rate while being ranked last in the ACC in average SAT scores. We have taken a terrific beating regarding Chris Washburn’s 470 SAT. I was naïve enough to think this problem was nipped in the bud years ago when it was revealed that Kevin Madden was accepted at UNC with a sub 500 SAT. Not only did it not change a thing, but Madden managed to GRADUATE. Jay Williams is continually praised for graduating from Duke in 3 years and being accepted to medical school with a 90 some hour degree in Political Science.
http://www.newsobserver.com/122/story/438734.html
It will certainly be interesting to see who the Pack can hold onto during this time of transition.
SFN - Please don’t take this as a criticism…but, this link has nothing to do with the conversation. We are working hard to keep the comments here focused on the entry. We discuss our comments policy here and highlight our goal of trying to build archiveable conversations here.
THANKS!
Wasn’t PJ Tucker a partial qualifier?
SFN - No.
SFN, I understand and apologize. As a point of clarificatio, I found an article that I thought would be of great interest to this community. I saw no other place to post it as all other pertinent comment sections are closed. I would suggest keeping a general comments section open or active so fans can fill in the gaps, so to speak. Thx.
SFN - That’s fair. And we are trying to find the appropriate balance of how to provide these types of opportunities without haivng a free for all message board. We DEFINITELY appreciate the value add of this kind of stuff. Thank you very much
As usual Tudor does a good job.
I believe the effects of Sendek’s one losing season had seriously hurt our recruiting. This correlates to the Cam Bennerman/Justin Flatt and the Engin Atsur/Mike O’Donnell classes. Just goes to show even having 1 mediocre recruiting class will stall a program.
I have to believe Sidney Lowe has a pretty unique sales pitch for recruits: he’s alumni and won national championship, and his NBA experience. I have to believe this will really give him a major advantage. Can’t wait to find out….
“I have heard “Danâ€? and “(waves)â€? credit Sendek’s offense as the major reason for Gavin Grants decision to play at NCSU??? ”
Red, I dont think you’ve ever seen me mention Gavin Grant in that way. Its possible, but I dont remember it. I will say this about Herb now that his tenure is over.
I believe he sold the offense as different things to different people. Take this quote from Chris Wright as an example:
“Guys like Mike Bibby and Jason Kidd… they are great point guards in the NBA and play in a similiar system.” -
http://northcarolinastate.scout.com/2/485581.html (free content)
You can find similar quotes from similiar type players who have chosen to come to NC State.
The fact is that Herb Sendek sold his offense to some kids as an NBA offense very much like the Sacramento Kings and the NJ Nets. These NBA teams do use this playset. However, it used to create beneficial matchups and space to allow the players the room be creative and explosive. To open up the key in order to allow excellent PG’s like Kidd and Bibby to make the passes we see on ESPN.
But to others, like Dan Werner and Trevor Furgeson, I believe the recruitment process stressed the perimeter game. Now I’m not a mind reader, so I’m not going to accuse Herb of lying to Chris Wright, Larry Davis, Gavin Grant, Courtney Fells, and Cedric Simmons (all guys who I believe bought into the NBA comparison), so I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he was trying to get to that style of play. But was Herb going to realiztically ever get there? What you need to run that system is two essential pieces. And I’ll use the Kings as the example because they used the playset much more than the Nets this year and in more similiar ways. The two pieces you need are a great PG (Mike Bibby) and F/C that can do it all from above the stripe (Brad Miller). Note that the Kings two assist leaders were Mike Bibby and Brad Miller. But was Brad Miller actually Brad Miller in college, or did he need years to develop these skills? How many college kids are going to have that mature of a game that early? Not to mention that the only PG he ever recruited, Julius Hodge, he forced to play the 3 simply because he had so many other guards he wanted to play.
Now when the Nets run the playset, its almost exclusively to clear out the paint so that Vince Carter and Richard Jefferson can drive the lane without having to worry about shot blockers being camped in the paint. NOTE: The NBA’s rules on defense really makes this possible. Read the following link for the new rules on defense, the 3 second defensive lane violation, in the NBA:
http://www.nba.com/features/jackson_rules_response.html
This is exactly how to explain the recent Gavin Grant comments. Gavin thought he was coming to a place where he would be put in space and allowed to be creative. When Gavin got here, he realized that was not the case. I think Cam went through similiar frustrations, and Courtney Fells was starting to feel them.
This sort of play style in the college game has a glaring Achilles’ heel. The zone defense. In college you can take all five guys and pack it in effectively jamming lane as to deny the NJ Nets like approach. Still, if you had a effective PG, you could still create dribble penetration in order to have kick outs and passes to cutting players. But the only PG Herb ever had was forced to play the wing for his Soph, Junior, and half of his Senior year. (The last half of Hodge’s year, Herb relied on Jules to dribble drive and make the dish…Best basketball of the entire Herb Sendek tenure for a reason). What this left was the weave and heave we all came to loathe.
I still believe the playset can be successful at the highest level of the college game, and we’ll see it happen soon at G’Town. The Duke game was a thing of beauty. And G’Town is recruiting the types of athletes that can make it happen. JTIII is emphazing the recruitment of PG’s and is taking more of the NJ Nets approach rather than the Sac Kings.
Maybe this will help explain to some why kids like Gavin Grant, Courtney Fells, and Chris Wright wanted to play here, and why Herb struggled with it. What I really failed to understand with Sendek was two things. When he missed on the 5 star PG’s (Gilchrist, Shakur, Sosa), why wasnt the next best PG brought in. Look at Tyrese Rice at BC. There is talent out there to be found. You cant play a halfcourt set without a PG. And why of why did Herb never add a playset to deal with opposing team packing in the zone?
In passing, the playset has helped Ced Simmons develop a game most his age do not possess. This from NBAdraft.net:
“Vision and passing skills are above average for a post …”
http://www.nbadraft.net/profiles/cedricsimmons.asp
I really had never thought of it this way. I always disclaimed the “local competition” angle more on the basis of basketball recruiting being, for a large part, national in nature. Certainly most of the major programs (and definitely Duke and UNC) recruit this way.
I certainly don’t believe for a minute that NC State should accept “second class status” - but I do believe that there are THREE programs with intrinsic advantages above and beyond the rest of the pack (and not coach-dependent). Those three are UNC, UCLA, and Kentucky. NC State AS AN INSTITUTION is set up to compete just as well as every other program in the country, IMHO. Look at them as being “A+” institutionally, above the next tier of 20-30 or so “A” level programs, of which NC State would be one.
Jeff - I list 6 programs with stronger intrinsic value — Kentucky, Carolina, Duke, Indiana, UCLA & Kansas. Interestingly, Duke wasn’t on this list 20 years ago…so, the obviously things can change and program’s can grow based on who is running the ship. Indiana, for example, may be in for some decline in the future.
As a pre-emptive rebuttal, I think programs like Duke and UConn are behemoths b/c of the Hall of Fame coaches in place - not an inherent institutional advantage.
Jeff - It’s hard to argue with that. I lump Michigan State, Louisville, Syracuse, Texas, Cincy, Arizona & Florida into this bucket
“Jeff - in the mid 1990s when Duke, Carolina and Wake were the top of the ACC…Carolina and Wake were ranked last in the ACC is average SAT scores on their roster. NC State was #1 in the ACC in average SAT scores and last in the ACC at the time.”
Not to be contrarian, because I agree whole-heartedly, but … how much of that can be laid at the study desk of Todd Fuller and his 3.9 GPA in Math?
I am no Herb fan and I am glad he has moved on. However, some of the recruiting criticisms in this thread are unfair. Chris Wilcox, PJ Tucker and Steve Blake all had academic issues that would have prevented them from playing at State.
SFN - No they didn’t. They were academic risks that Sendek chose not to take (like Scooter Sherril whom he did take). Other schools took the risks and got the rewards. Lastly, Steve Blake was never an academic risk in any way, shape or form.
I wasn’t aware of the Josh Howard thing. If that is the case and it wasn’t due to academics, then Herb definitely blew it on that one. However, everyone makes mistakes and I feel that overall, Herb did a pretty good job recruiting. He definitely upgraded the talent from where it was when he took over. Also, let’s not forget about Chris Wright. There is no telling what he would have done at State. Sometimes it only takes one player to make everyone else a lot better. Look at what Julius Hodge did for our program. Look what Chris Paul did for Wake Forest.
It’s okay to pick on Herb for his lack of game-time coaching, his inflexibility and lack of enthusiasm for rivalry games but let’s be fair when it comes to his recruiting record.
SFN - We agree completely. Let’s be fair about the recruiting record and not continue our history of rationalizing and excusing away everything.
Herb’s gone. Sidney Lowe is here and I am beginning to believe that he can get the job done. Tudor gets it. Yes, we can achieve again!!
UNC and UCLA basically got to their elite status because of 1 coach - Smith and Wooden. That means it’s reasonable to assume that Duke is also going to stay at the top even after K leaves. In other words, Duke now has the same kind of advantage that UNC and UCLA have.
Jeff - Frank McGuire won a National Championship in a perfect season long before Dean Smith became the coach at Carolina. UCLA has played in National Title games with four different coaches. It doesn’t matter HOW they became an elite program with one coach. They have proven the ability to generate success with enough different coaches that it is obvious that they have a top program
In some ways Duke might have more of an advantage now than UCLA had back under Wooden because there is so much more hype around top teams now with virtually every game for top teams on TV and 24 hour sports news channels hyping up teams like UNC and Duke.
“Not to be contrarian, because I agree whole-heartedly, but … how much of that can be laid at the study desk of Todd Fuller and his 3.9 GPA in Math?”
Actually, probably about 10% of it - tops. It’s not like the b’ball team had 3 players.
Regarding the “in-state” recruiting thing perhaps the most ironic note is that the best period of success Wake has ever had was led by a center from the Virgin Islands and guard from the DC area.
It’s also worth noting that since the university increased their academic standards for athletes and since prop 48 (the enhanced version) became the law of the land many of the top NC talent is staying away from the North Carolina schools.
However, I don’t think it was the talent that was holding our program back and keeping it from winning titles. IMHO, it was Sendek’s inability to inspire confidence and execution in the closing minutes of games. 3 late collapses doomed him - at UMd (year 4), Duke ACC championship game in 2003, Vandy in 2004. Hopefully, Sidney will inspire confidence as the team goes down the stretch. Even though he may not have the organizational prowess of Sendek (and I think Sendek was one of the best around in that area) I think he can exceed Sendek’s results because I think he’ll be strong in an area where Sendek was terribly weak.
Jeff - I agreed with your post. All I’m saying is that one can infer in reading it that Les and Herb willingly and purposefully recruited lesser talent than was the norm at State previously. While I agree with what you’re saying, I just thought it was appropriate to note that some of the players mentioned could not have been recruited by Les or Herb even if they wanted them, due to what I thought were extreme NCSU requirements. I wonder how much Les “moved away” from State’s traditional recruiting model vs. how much the administration pushed him away. However, I fully concede that I may be wrong and remember things incorrectly.
Regarding Tucker, I admit that I do not know who in N.C. recruited him, if anyone. I thought I read somewhere - possibly SFN - that the UNC system’s accelerated requirements had at times negatively impacted recruiting, and Tucker was an example. I’ve been led to believe that was a major reason Calipari decided not to come.
I completely agree with you regarding the misconception that athletics drive the academic reputation of universities. That is why I wrote what I wrote. IMO, the NCSU faculty & administration from the late 80s and early 90s are far more responsible for the program’s collapse than Les Robinson. He did the best with what they gave him - how many players did he lose second semester because of their ridiculous self-flagellation?
Whether it was Case, Bubas, Smith, Sloan, Driesell, Holland, Valvano, K, G. Williams or Roy Williams their success was predicated on the talent in the their programs more than the plays or systems they ran. The most consistent recruiters have had the most consistent winning programs.
Coach Lowe will bring in better recruits due to his style of play, the lure of his NBA background and he will utilize the Wolfpack family resources unlike anyone who’s had this job during my life. This is why we should all be eager with anticipation of greater success than seen over the past 16 years.
Off topic, I know. But this is a prime reason why both bloggers and message boarders should be careful of what they say and how they conduct themselves.
ouch
I like the example Tom Izzo has put forth. He has landed many in state recruits since taking the job at E. Lansing. Using networks in place in metro area’s in NYC, and D.C. will always be of great use. Guess where everyone else looks too, so you will have to take the good w/ the bad. By making a visible and meticulous look at in state players you hedge your bets while the inner city recruits love you know, don’t know you later.
(1) You can really evaluate these players with a comfort of certainty. They are playing against each other, and like opponets. Apples vs. Apples.
(2) Sell to them that they will team up and represent the State when they play UNC and Duke teams with players from everywhere. Use it as motivation, just as Izzo got the Flint-stone boys to play.
( 3) Lastly, I have no facts to back me up on this, transfers are less common with in state recruits.
UNC’s 57 national title was only 4 years prior to Dean Smith taking over, not “long” before.
Also Duke was an elite program under Vic Bubas in the 60s, the only thing they didn’t do with Bubas was win a national title.
I think people expecting or hoping Duke to run into problems after K are going to be disappointed, much like people expecting UNC to tank after Smith (except for the 1 really bad year)
I’m truly sorry people, but I think that this whole idea of “tough academic resestrictions” holding us back is a load of BS. I know for a fact that there was a BB player at State between 95 and 98 who had a learning disability. He was in one of my English classes and he had to drop it because there was too much reading. There was even an article in the N&O his last year at State that talked about all the things he had to overcome just to be in college. I’m not going to give his name but he avg. 10.7 ppg over the fours he was at State, so you can lookup who I’m talking about if it matters that much to you. As you can tell from some of my posts, english was not my best subject but I made a B in the class, it wasn’t that hard.
I know the restrictions were a lot tougher in the early 90’s, we all remember Mr. Kornegay’s short, short stay with us, but I just don’t believe that it holds true today. If a kid can get into UNX, he can get into NC State.
Hey Joe what about the two coaches that followed Bubas prior to Bill Foster’s arrival in Durham. How good were they? Duke MUST have a great coach to be great it’s just that simple. None of these programs will run on auto pilot just look at us for the past 16 years.
Interesting topic of recruiting in-state vs. out of state. I still believe that when the new academic requirements rolled out the State schools in the ACC lost a lot of talent. Much of the talent in NC has been academically marginal - Chris Washburn and Kenny Williams - 2 of the best recruits in the 80s come to mind. Mt. Zion produced tons of great players who couldn’t enroll in conference.
There’s a huge prospect west of Winston Salem right now. He’s a 6-9 PF/C type with lots of skills. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. He’s the classic kid that may not end up w/ Duke or UNC-Ch - and State and Wake may end up fighting it out. I see this as a critical in-state match up.
During the Les years, I wrote a couple of articles for Technician documenting our basketball academics verses Duke and UNC. I have them in hardcopy form.
At that time, Duke and UNC, not Wake, had the two lowest average SAT scores in the ACC.
NC State had the second highest average SAT scores.
NC State had the highest team GPA, even if you removed Todd Fuller.
I spoke with, and quoted, a representative in the athletics department at UNC who stated that a number of players on their basketball team would have been on academic suspension at NC State during the ACC season.
^ I’ve heard David Glenn dispute this in the past on the radio.
Eric Wallace is a 2007 in-state recruit to watch. Tremendous athlete, David Noel type with great mid-range game that would not be a great fit for the Princeton offense. I wonder if our new staff will make this player a high priority.
Does anyone have a CONFIRMATION that Coach Towe is NOW officially on the Lowe man’s staff…All the published articles state the Harris has signed and Towe is negotiating…just curious about Jackson and Strickland and any others…by the way…what is the NCAA limit on the staff…appreciate any feedback from those more knowledgeable than me.
I second all the great comments…Lowe is a natural fit. He has all the characteristics that made V great…he is mature and capable of achieving his own level of greatness by learning from the success - as well as the failures of others. V was an English major with a tremendous knowledge of history…particularly BB. Lowe will be able to rekindle the flame and keep the dream alive…I personally vote for a remake of V’s dream room. He left us enough footage for a great experience…Need V’s name on our court…not just in the rafters of the RBC
Is there a specific part of my statement that you would like confirmation about?
I’m happy to send copies of my article which have my name at the top. Unfortunately, they were pre internet archive.
newt,
what year was the article from? What was the name of the person from the UNC AD that you talked with, what office did they hold? Where did you get your info about SAT scores and GPA’s? What years were the SAT and GPA scores from that were in your article?
Billy,
What are you arguing. I had articles published in major newspapers listing the average SAT scores of programs and the average GPAs. One year I remember vividly that State was at the top and Wake and Carolina were virtually tied at the bottom (and were sitting at the top of the standings).
“Eric Wallace is a 2007 in-state recruit to watch. Tremendous athlete, David Noel type with great mid-range game that would not be a great fit for the Princeton offense. I wonder if our new staff will make this player a high priority.”
The kid I’m talking about isn’t Wallace. Wallace is an interesting case - he was supposed to be the next “it” player in the Triad. However, he hasn’t grown too much since his Freshman year when he was a 6-5 man-child. He’s got great grades, but is transferring to Hargrave this year. It will be interesting to see what happens to him - his stock hasn’t skyrocketed the last year like others thought it would. However, all indications are that he is a good kid. This happens a lot when you start following players early - the 6-4 to 6-6 superstud has the rest of the field catch up to him because he doesn’t grow a lot.
Still - Wallace is the classic player that would probably have a productive career at NC State or Wake.
I’m sorry, I wasn’t trying to argue anything. I was only asking for the year that was being talked about and wondering where one would go to discover info on BB player’s SAT scores and their GPA’s. I’m sorry that I find it interesting.
A friend of my wife’s went to Carolina (’00) and at first was pre med before switching to journalism. She told us a story one night about when taking a biology test freshman year, she happened to see classmate Dante Calabria stroll in fashionably late. He got his test from the teacher sat down, and was done an hour before anyone else. This story would not have been memorable to Sharon I suspect, if not for the day to pick up the test results she found Dante’s name posted as the highest score.
I beleive almost everything about that story, except the posting of Calabria’s name with the highest score. Professor’s normally don’t post things like that.
I could ask her how she found out otherwise. She knew zero about men’s basketball when she attended. Calabria, and others, were there to pick up a syllabus and again on exam day. She was told by a classmate who he was. It’s not that I’m looking to score points on Carolina. In fact I think the whole conversation about G.P.A.’s, SAT’s is foolish. The standards are what they are so they is really no debating that. Once they’re in thats it. My father-in-law is a professor at State and had to give a F or atleast an incomplete to a certain Wolfpack forward around the time this athlete had been arrested for drunk driving. He was under so much scrutiny from above that in the end he gave up and just passed him. This individual hadn’t attended ONE class. In the past 10 years I have noticed a pattern around the country that players are sat down by coach’s for violating team rules more and more, versus a sharp decline in players sitting out specifically for academics.
^^you’re right, my bad. Calabria’s name was not posted, possibly ID, but the teacher did announce that he had the highest exam score in the class.
One factor not yet discussed is the role that the fan base might have related to in-state recruiting. I was torn about the Sendek situation for years. I really thought that our program could do better without him, but I believe in supporting your coach. When he started getting NCAAT invitations, I was even more torn. I think that in-state recruits, especially, are tuned in to the relationship between a coach and the fan base. The widespread unhappiness with Herb couldn’t have helped recruiting, especially with programs nearby having nothing but love for their coaches. Now we have a fresh opportunity, and I think it is important to extend the Coach Lowe “honeymoon” as long as possible. Realistically, our program may struggle for a couple years, especially if Cedric Simmons jumps to the NBA and if we can’t get re-commitments from some of Herb’s recruits. I don’t think we should underestimate the effect that we, as fans, have on the in-state recruiting climate. I think we need to re-make our image into one of an intensely loyal and excited fan base. I for one will be disappointed if we lose badly to UNC next year and the grumbling starts. We, as a fan base, are not just spectators. Our reaction to the program’s successes and especially its failures will have an effect on Coach Lowe’s recruiting.
Speaking of recruits. It looks like Seton Hall is wasting no time going after our two NJ recruits (Werner and Horner). Bobby Gonzalez is supposed to be an excellent recruiter. Without a coach, this could be tough for us.
http://setonhall.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=543226&SR=TSN
Question for SFN - Do you know if both players have been granted a conditional release or just one? If one of them hasn’t, then Seton Hall isn’t allowed to contact him right?
“I for one will be disappointed if we lose badly to UNC next year and the grumbling starts”
This won’t be an issue, mark my word. Lowe will come in ready to compete in the ACC, and the communication between fans/coach will be the first major improvement. No more reading between the lines. Everyone who lives gets to experience life as a process, but Lowe is a guys who wants to win basketball games.
In defense of Herb, from what I remember, he did make a push for Wilcox and his teammate Michael Bell, another top 100 player from Enloe (me class of ‘92, so I paid more attention to those guys more than most). Bell joined NCSU, but blew out his knee and realized he wasn’t going to get playing time, so transferred. Wilcox went to Maryland.
I think part of the problem with Randoplh, was the fact Herb was recruiting the year before he made his first NCAAT appearance, and his job security was in doubt. Mikie K. was coming of a Final Four birth, during the recruitment, and/or the ‘01 NCAA tournament title (maybe, I’m trying to get my dates straight so I don’t know if the title was before or after Randoplh committed to Duke).
Anyway Duke was a much flashier and more successful program than NCSU, which was trying to rebuild from the fallout from the Valvano-era and still hadn’t shown it could be a NCAA caliber team. Randoplh did the “safe” thing for himself. He went to the more established program, instead of taking a chance with a coach, Herb, who might be fired and a program, NCSU, which might not get enough talent together to make an NCAA tournament.
So I’m not laying it too hard on Herb for losing out on Wilcox and Randolph. He did try but didnt’ have the track record to compete with Gary Williams - Joe Smith recently being the No. 1 overall pick in the NBA draft, at that time - and Mikie K’s proven success.
Just a side note Chris Paul wasn’t second tier talent. He was the top player in North Carolina, coming out of high school, from what I’ve read. Same with David Thompson and Tommy Burleson.
We can build a solid program with second tier guys, but we aren’t going to contend, on a consistent basis, with Duke or Caroina (especially Carolina), if we can’t land top players in North Carolina. Carolina really separated itself, in terms of success, from NCSU in the late 1970’s, when Norm Sloan lost out to Dean Smith, on such guys like James Worthy and Phil Ford.
Cedric Simmons was the top rated player coming out of high school, in North Carolina a couple of years ago. Without him, we all feel next year will be a tough year. With him, we’re all guiddy with antiicipation (maybe premature) about what next year could be like.
You can build a solid program with second tier guys, but to really compete with Duke and Carolina, not have some “surprise” runs in the ACC tournament, we’ll need to get at least one top tier guy, whether from NC or out of state.
Also, for arguments sake, if mistakes were made about evaluating talent, and Harris was Herb’s guy for recruiting players, than how are we confident things will improve since Harris will be Lowe’s point man for evaluating prospects.
Herb’s lack of job security hurt us, with regards to recruitment, in 2002 and 2003, more so than mis-evaluating players. These weak recruiting classes is what kept us from really improving as a program, the last few years. Even this past season, we had three walk-ons suiting up for games, on the bench. That’s not a lot of depth, compared to what three solid recruiting classes (I’m assuming ’06’s stays in tact) will do for depth and talent at every position.
Herb had trouble developing talent, so I don’t think it’d have made much of a difference if we got Steve Blake or Chris Crawford. Either would’ve struggled and not live up to the hype they had coming out of high school.
I’m hoping, and most NCSU fans should hope this too, that the Pistons win the NBA title this year. That’d really give Lowe a good boost for getting the door, of potential recruits, because we do need some top tier talent to get back to playing championship basketball.
^Dan
“the room be creative and explosive.”
I knew my post would get a rise out of you.
Now just where was the “creative/ explosive” part? I must have missed that somewhere along the way.
^Dan
Forget my previous smart a*s post above this one. You are plainly promoting a theory, of how the game can be played. Some of your earlier comments, from months before, led me to believe that you thought that everything was fine on the offensive end, that it was all the player’s fault because they just weren’t executing.
Your point about the zone defense is good and fairly obvious. That offensive style cannot flourish without dribble drive penetration and speed at the ball handling positions. It has to have a constant and consistent threat to penetrate, or it can never get off the ground. Herb either forgot, did not know how to teach it, or just didn’t realize, that that was the most important key to his scheme. Thus, resulting in endless heaves raining down from beyond the arc.
Where we differ is, I don’t care who is making that theory work with totally different personal, at a different level with a whole different set of rules, it is still an unproven commodity in the college game, and no other coach, in college, or at the profession level, ever applauded his team for wasting a three on one fast break opportunity, at the half court line, just to set up the offense.
Your points about Grant, Cam B, Ced S, and the rest, may be correct. Even though I do not believe in that offense as the mainstay and only option, and unlike some of you guys, I know the players at NCSU over the past years could have executed it much better than they ever did if they were taught it correctly, that wasn’t the player’s fault.
Red,
G’Town is doing a pretty good job already at executing that offense. And the talent they are chasing is just going to make them better. JTIII is proving a much better at adapting the offense to the college game than Sendek. JTIII knows he needs athletes to run it in college. And he knows that he needs solid PG play. There were times when it seemed that the only way Herb knew to beat a zone was the 3 when there are many other ways out there. Dribble penetration. Overloading areas (I’m not sure I ever saw Sendek attempt this on purpose).
And I’m not saying its the best system. I dont think there is a ‘best’ system. The best players win. If the best coaches won, the same teams would win every year. Duke might be unstoppable. But Duke’s players werent that good, so they lost, no matter the offense they ran.
In the end, I really dont care what offense is run. I just want to win.
To tell you the truth. If it were me, I like BC’s style of play. There are times when they will all 5 guys either in or close to the paint. Precision passing close in. Bounce passes. If Ced came back next year, State could do something similiar at times. Having Ced, B-Rack, Costner, Grant, and Fells on the court would give us some nasty size most teams would have a hard time matching. Not to mention four of those guys can take you outside as well.
^Dan,
Fair enough, good to see that you are thinking that way. You have to admit that Cam B fit the bill for an inside/outside threat. You are definite numbers/ strategy guy. I believe that a coaches persona and skill can make the difference with regards to the inequities in talent and personnel, in every game, of every season. It will not always produce wins against far superior teams, but it is always a factor in being competitive with them.
You are already well aware that I think that game situations involve ever changing strategies and decisions, every time down, and at both ends of the court.