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One more point, pakfanistan made a very good observation a few weeks ago. He said we see improvement through the year with Gott’s teams (which I heartily agree with). But it seems we start from scratch every year as the improvement does not seem to continue to the next year. That makes sense when you are losing 2 1/2 players a year that still have eligibility as well as regular graduation. It’s also why we always hear that we are a “young team”.
Gott has to recruit 3 players just to maintain because of early departures. What you end up with is a constantly young team that has to relearn their roles every year.Has a Gott recruit ever stayed all 4 years and graduated? I honestly cannot remember and too hungover to look it up.
This is Gott’s 5th season, so this could only have happened with his first class: TDT, Harris, Raymond, Battle. Battle is the only one who stayed all 4 years and completed his eligibility. But this class isn’t really a great example, since Gott didn’t have even a full year to recruit this class, and I think Lowe signed Raymond and Harris.
However, his second class (and the first one that was fully his IMO) was Lewis, Purvis, Warren, and Chase Cannon, and it looks the same with respect to this question — only Cannon will stay 4 years and complete his eligibility.
His third class was Anya, Barber, Freeman, Washington, Chris Brickhouse, and Patrick Wallace. Washington transferred and everyone expects Barber to go pro after this year. Not sure if Wallace is still on the roster, but the other 3 (Anya, Freeman, and Brickhouse) are on pace to complete 4 years of eligibility next season.
People like Rick want to bash Gott about player retention,
I said it was a weakness of his. I notice you didn’t mention the strengths I listed cuz it doesn’t fit your narrative. Of course you go on to mention the things you think he does wrong but I guess when you do it it’s not “bashing”.
I don’t have a “narrative.” I have an opinion/perspective on the player retention issue that was under discussion in the thread. I don’t think all criticism is bashing. It turns into bashing when it is rehashed constantly without applying appropriate context. I provided context in my post that shows it isn’t as bad as you and some others have made it out to be. The overall roster management has been a weakness, but IMO not because of player retention, as I explained. You are free to disagree.
He has lost an average of … 3/4 to leaving early with no hope of the NBA.
This is demonstrably false. Warren and Brown are both currently playing for the Suns.
Lacey played on the Cavaliers summer league team and is now playing in Italy; he could still play in the NBA in the future. I believe it was understood when he declared that he was not expected to get drafted and was ready to play in Europe. I wouldn’t characterize him as having “no hope” of playing the NBA.
Leslie was signed to a partially guaranteed contract by the Knicks after the 2013 draft. They later waived him, but it clearly wasn’t true that he had “no hope” of playing in the NBA. This past summer, he played for the Kings summer league team. He could still play in the NBA in the future, though IMO he is probably a longer shot than Lacey due to his tweener size and the limitations in his game as relates to the NBA. For now, he is playing in the Israeli league.
BTW are you really including walk ons to make a point? LOL
Yes, they are on the team. You know who they are and can discount them if you like. :shrug:
It’s obvious they just wanted out of the program.
See, this is a bashing perspective. You are the one making claims to fit your narrative.
Warren obviously made the right choice. Leslie probably felt like he had to go based on how the NBA drafts, i.e., young players can have issues in their game but get drafted on potential, older players not so much. Or maybe he just overrated his game and thus his NBA chances. Brown may have been the same as Leslie.
Or maybe Leslie and Brown were like Lacey, ready to get paid to play.
In any case, there is no evidence that any one of them had any problem with Gott and “just wanted out.” When you say it that way, the implication is that they would have stayed if “the program” was different in some way but were pushed into leaving because it wasn’t.
To sum up Tau’s post, the only players that have completed the four years are walkons.
“Anya, Barber, Freeman, Washington, Chris Brickhouse, and Patrick Wallace”
Wallace and Washington are gone. Barber will be gone. There are rumors about Anya. I expect you will see Freeman and Brickhouse stay. Not exactly a great track record. Out of ten non walkons, best case scenario is 2 will stay all four years (Anya and Freeman). Below the Mendosa line.
I believe that the era of the 4-year player is more or less over, especially if you are recruiting at the high D-1 level. It is certainly more the exception than the rule. MG is STRONG in how he has CREATIVELY adapted to this reality, in making us a “premium” landing spot for transfers. We have a good reputation for integrating players and having guys succeed here on their “second chance” and that’s paid dividends.
On the other hand, he has shown at least SOME WEAKNESS in scholarship spacing and finding “glue guys” (like Alex Johnson) to weave together a coherent, self-sustaining, reasonably deep and playable roster of players. It’s certainly fair to say he can’t have it both ways – he’s free to not over-recruit to maintain flexibility, but then he can’t complain when someone leaves early that he didn’t plan for (as will inevitably happen) or gets hurt (ditto).
The hope for the future is that he keeps tinkering with his formula. He has, over the past two seasons, started stressing defense much more. Last season, he did use a deeper rotation when personnel allowed for it. So he’s not stubborn for the sake of being stubborn. As long as we can avert dumpster fire enough this season that his recruiting ability isn’t badly undermined, I think our rebound potential is pretty strong. We will have to see what MG does with the lessons learned.
One also has to remember that every transfer isn’t a bad thing. Last year, when MG laid down his “no defense, no minutes” ultimatum (that saved our season and led to the Sweet Sixteen run), everyone listened but KW. So MG quit playing him except for very rare occasions. And he transferred. Would you rather he have rolled over on his word?
On our roster, I think Freeman and the Twins will be 4-year guys. Maybe/probably GFK. I certainly hope KH stays for next season, with Abu breaking out I worry about him going pro again.
He has, over the past two seasons, started stressing defense much more.
I haven’t noticed significant (or really any) improvement yet….I’ll have to pay more attention.
He has, over the past two seasons, started stressing defense much more.
I haven’t noticed significant (or really any) improvement yet….I’ll have to pay more attention.
This year State ranks (our rebounding and blocked shots are ranked high)
#294 in opponents effective FG%
#248 in opponents three%
#288 in opponents two %
#276 in opponents FG%
#272 in opp shooting efficiencyInfo pulled from https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-basketball/team/nc-state-wolfpack/stats
He has, over the past two seasons, started stressing defense much more.
I haven’t noticed significant (or really any) improvement yet….I’ll have to pay more attention.
This year State ranks (our rebounding and blocked shots are ranked high)
#294 in opponents effective FG%
#248 in opponents three%
#288 in opponents two %
#276 in opponents FG%
#272 in opp shooting efficiencyInfo pulled from https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-basketball/team/nc-state-wolfpack/stats
Rick, you quoted the N.C. State offense ranks, not defense. Here are the defense ranks:
#100 in opponents effective FG%
#293 in opponents three%
#32 in opponents two %
#75 in opponents FG%
#45 in opp shooting efficiencyAside from those numbers, we are good in blocks, but very poor at creating turnovers, and we also aren’t great on the defensive boards.
If we could defend the three point line and get better on the defensive boards, we would be a good defensive team. Of course, the former is a tall order for team with only one real guard playing, so I’m not holding my breath.
Tau,
Thank you for the correction. That table was a bit confusing.
Here are our stats for offense.
Amended
#294 in effective FG%
#248 in three%
#288 in two %
#276 in FG%
#272 in shooting efficiencyHas a Gott recruit ever stayed all 4 years and graduated? I honestly cannot remember and too hungover to look it up.
This is Gott’s 5th season, so this could only have happened with his first class: TDT, Harris, Raymond, Battle. Battle is the only one who stayed all 4 years and completed his eligibility. But this class isn’t really a great example, since Gott didn’t have even a full year to recruit this class, and I think Lowe signed Raymond and Harris.
However, his second class (and the first one that was fully his IMO) was Lewis, Purvis, Warren, and Chase Cannon, and it looks the same with respect to this question — only Cannon will stay 4 years and complete his eligibility.
His third class was Anya, Barber, Freeman, Washington, Chris Brickhouse, and Patrick Wallace. Washington transferred and everyone expects Barber to go pro after this year. Not sure if Wallace is still on the roster, but the other 3 (Anya, Freeman, and Brickhouse) are on pace to complete 4 years of eligibility next season.
Chase Cannon wasnt a recruit
The offensive numbers don’t surprise me, we are a trainwreck there. Playing with ONE guard, we have no shape whatsoever in the half-court. Just dreadful to watch. It’s been a loooooong trail of poop.
But with a commitment to defense and NOW (at least against Pitt) rebounding, perhaps we can scratch out a few more wins and get to the NIT bubble at least. Like MG noted, Twin B has also helped the offense when he’s started by looking to get the ball inside more consistently.
Yes, I definitely think we’ve been MUCH better defensively the second half of last season and all of this one. Not “lockdown” but that will never be our identity, nor does it have to be. But we give consistent effort on defense, and have reasonable fundamentals. We had that last season (after the “come to Jesus” talk) and the remaining problems were physical (BSW’s knee and Trevor’s so-so lateral quickness – which is why he didn’t get a whiff from the NBA).
Yes, I definitely think we’ve been MUCH better defensively the second half of last season and all of this one. Not “lockdown” but that will never be our identity, nor does it have to be
It does if you want to win a title of any type.
I think BJD is right on Defense. Remember our lack of offenseive efficiency really hurts us defensively. We struggle to get back on D,which also hurts rebounding.
As for philosophy, I think we ought to change the way play. Recruit guards and wing players who can handle the ball and shoot. Only focus on one or two true big men. It will help us a great deal on offense and defense. If you have 2 players who are good shooters and could create off the dribble consistently, you would be able to attack a defense no matte rhow they defend you. Right now we have only player who can do that and it is killing us on both sides of the floor.
If you are elite offensively and “pretty good” defensively…I think that’s the best formula for tournament basketball.
Considering you are unlikely to ever be elite/elite. Being a “lockdown defense” kind of program usually involves tradeoffs in offensive flow/identity that I don’t think we really want to make (this season notwithstanding).
Can’t remember who it was–maybe Tau–but someone examined the adjusted Kenpom metrics of the last dozen or Final 4’s and national champs. What was found is that almost always, the teams had top defenses. Offenses were also great. But while a team can get hot offensively, they don’t often get hot defensively. Sustained results require really good defense. We’re not anywhere close to that.
The biggest concern for me isn’t the transfers, the poor play, etc., it’s Gott’s seemingly inability to capitalize and build from one year to the next. Now, it seems like we’re on the down slide. Unless there are additions to come, next year we have no backup PG yet again and a FR PG coming off a torn ACL.
His approach to recruiting seems to Calimari’ish but he doesn’t have the results or NBA draft placement to really compete with the Calamari’s. All he can sell is instant playing time. And when the results on teh court or the draft don’t stack up, then he’s going to lose out on a fair share of that talent. THe question is, can you identify and develop the 3-4 star guys. Can you identify roll players…The Lenard Freeman’s are essential to winning, imo.
The biggest concern for me isn’t the transfers, the poor play, etc., it’s Gott’s seemingly inability to capitalize and build from one year to the next
I think the players leaving are a big part of the inability to build from one year to the next. Three players a year leaving early throws a wrench in the best laid plans.
I agree the defense is better. Offense is a struggle but to be expected with the roster. Offensive rebounding is developing into a real strength.
Rick, I don’t think any of those guys left because they weren’t happy with the program. Just think there was some bad info and some over inflated egos (actually, not with Lacy as he was told he likely would not be drafted, and he went for it anyways).
I do understand Lacey’s decision. I would like him with us this year but I do understand his decision. Over the years there have been others that were head shakers. But that seems to be rampant in top level college basketball.
Gott’s future is NOT at risk. This is already considered a “Rebuilding” year. Somehow when I post that, it just disappears.
He has the full support of Debbie Yow. Lacey’s leaving hit both of them blind…so I guess that those who saw it coming should have reached out to them to let them know….as the poster that is already talking about Shaun Kirk deciding to leave.
Freeman had an injury that had not healed….as did Kirk. Those that also predicted Henderson’s injury should have also warned the coach and AD.
Based on a LOT of statistics that were provided to me….here is what I was told. A cut and paste from an unsolicited email….
“State is part of that elite 2.5%. Others include Duke, UNCCH, Kansas, Kentucky, Michigan State, Louisville, Ohio State and Wichita State…. So, 4 ACC, 2 Big Ten, 1 Big Twelve, 1 SEC, and the conference Wichita State is in.
As challenging as this season is, I also try to remember what has been achieved, after not going to the NCAAs 15 out of the 20 years before Mark arrived”So, speculation about Coach Gott’s future is just an exercise….
The fact that we finally got the monkey off our back (and left him in the Oakland Zoo) is great. I only hope that the chemistry, mojo, comradery, or whatever LASTS. When we get the team focused….it works.
Promoting Cody so that Cat has less pressure and can take a rest is also very positive.
Hope this post does NOT disappear….as others have…
Gott’s future is NOT at risk. This is already considered a “Rebuilding” year. Somehow when I post that, it just disappears.
He has the full support of Debbie Yow. Lacey’s leaving hit both of them blind…so I guess that those who saw it coming should have reached out to them to let them know….as the poster that is already talking about Shaun Kirk deciding to leave.
Freeman had an injury that had not healed….as did Kirk. Those that also predicted Henderson’s injury should have also warned the coach and AD.
Based on a LOT of statistics that were provided to me….here is what I was told. A cut and paste from an unsolicited email….
“State is part of that elite 2.5%. Others include Duke, UNCCH, Kansas, Kentucky, Michigan State, Louisville, Ohio State and Wichita State…. So, 4 ACC, 2 Big Ten, 1 Big Twelve, 1 SEC, and the conference Wichita State is in.
As challenging as this season is, I also try to remember what has been achieved, after not going to the NCAAs 15 out of the 20 years before Mark arrived”So, speculation about Coach Gott’s future is just an exercise….
The fact that we finally got the monkey off our back (and left him in the Oakland Zoo) is great. I only hope that the chemistry, mojo, comradery, or whatever LASTS. When we get the team focused….it works.
Promoting Cody so that Cat has less pressure and can take a rest is also very positive.
Hope this post does NOT disappear….as others have…
I don’t know of anyone who really thinks he is getting fired. He and Yow are inextricably linked. We better hope he gets better players in as he is here until at least 2019.
As to the 2.5%. Whoopty do. No titles and frankly I don’t see his style ever winning one. I would love to be wrong.
^I dont want him fired because I dont want Yow anywhere near another coaching search in either sport.
However at this point we know exactly what Gott is. To a tee. It seems that a bulk of the fanbase is content with that (four straight NCAA, 2 16’s yada yada yada) and a bulk want more.(better record OOC and in ACC and better roster management). I see both points.
However if as the scuttlebutt is true and Archie truly wants to come here then IMO a plan must be put in place for that to happen. Programs should be ran like a business and not buddy buddy like Yow and Gott are. We gave him a job when nobody else would, we paid him millions and in return he righted our ship to a degree. But in business sometimes you must part ways, its just the way it is sometimes.
And that raise and extension preseason was just mind numbing retarded.
^I dont want him fired because I dont want Yow anywhere near another coaching search in either sport.
Let’s be honest here, Yow’s track record for hiring coaches has been pretty solid. Even the Volleyball hire was a good one. We won more games in a couple of years than we had in a decade, just lost momentum somehow.
Speaking of Yow:
Good to Great hires:
Women’s Softball
Wrestling
Women’s Basketball
SwimmingGood that Turned to Bad
Volleyball – resigned (I read forced to resign or be fired)Jury Still out
FootballOK
Men’s BasketballWhich ones am I missing
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