Variations in ACC BB Schedules

As we all know, the ginormous conferences have led to a situation where teams are technically in the same conference, but hardly ever play each other. This is worse in football, where you only play teams in the other division about twice per decade (except for your designated rival). In football, the difficulty of your conference schedule is driven mostly by the strength of your division. In basketball, the schedule difficulty is driven by your two defined rivals PLUS the other two teams that you play a home/home series with.

We have been tracking schedule difficulty here ever since the ACC expanded to 12 teams. Last year, I used the approach of totaling the wins of the four opponents that each team plays twice and using that total to rank the difficulty of the ACC schedules. This system has the advantage of simplicity (relatively speaking) with very few disadvantages. The chief disadvantages that I see in the system are:

  • Teams at the bottom “give” their opponents more wins and thus their schedule will tend to rise in difficulty.
  • There is no consideration given to where you play a particular opponent.

The first disadvantage is easy to avoid because we won’t attempt to draw any meaningful conclusions between the relative difficulty between say UVA’s schedule and someone at the bottom of the conference. The comparisons we’re interested in are those between the teams at the top of the conference and in those teams mired amongst the Mess in the Middle. Also, we’re not interested in slight differences between schedules. We’re looking for big differences that might have had significant differences in the conference finishes.

There might be some system to adjust schedule difficulty based on game location…but I haven’t really given it much thought or investigation. The current technique takes more than enough time as it is. Frankly, if I wasn’t interested in the results, I wouldn’t spend this much time just to have another analysis entry on the blog.

To illustrate the process, let’s take the winners of the easiest and hardest conference schedules and see how their results were tabulated:

It doesn’t take more than a few seconds to see how much difference the semi-random conference scheduling can have. So here is the entire conference breakdown in both tabular and graphic formats:

 

This technique has an inherent error-trapping component. Since it is theoretically possible for every team to finish with a 9-9 record, you can calculate the total number of conference wins that you should get when you total all of team’s H/A opponents (15*9*4=540). This error-checking system will hopefully catch any typos but there is always the risk of cancelling errors. If you find one, then let me know in the comments.

Now let’s take a closer look at the master conference schedule and see what stands out:

Notes of clarification:

1)     Read along the rows when you try to figure out where a particular game was played. For instance, Duke played UVA in C’ville.

2)    When dividing the conference into three tiers, I do not have pre-set criteria that I use each year. But between conference wins and RPI, the above splits seem reasonable to me.

3)    The “Hard-to-Easy” transition in each group was based on the math presented earlier. I’ve looked over the rankings and they all are defendable. If someone was argumentative (as hard to believe as that is), you could take exception over the ranking between say ND and UVA…but issues that small simply fall beneath my give-a-shit quotient.

 

TRIVIA TIME

No one played more than two teams at the top of the conference or two teams at the bottom of the conference.

FSU was the only team that didn’t have two games against anyone in the top third of the conference.

L’ville, VT, and BC didn’t have two games against any team that played on ACCT Tuesday.

Unsurprisingly, the teams that played on ACCT Tuesday all rank in the top-half of the conference in schedule difficulty.

Last year, UVA had the easiest conference schedule and they’re in the bottom third this year. Miami has the easiest schedule this year and was in the bottom third last year.

WF has the second most difficult schedule this year and had the toughest last year.

ND has GT and BC as its two defined rivals, so it isn’t surprising to see them near the bottom. However, they tied for fourth most difficult last year.

Duke, UNC, and State all ranked in the top-half in schedule difficulty both this year and last.

State’s schedule ranked 7th last year and tied for fifth this year. (I didn’t go back to double-check, but I don’t remember a year when State came up in the bottom-half of schedule strength.) When I first put the matrix together, I expected State to be closer to the middle…but Clemson worked up to nearly .500 in conference which boosted State’s schedule difficulty.

 

HOME/AWAY DIFFERENCES

As I was looking over the matrix, the difference between Clemson’s and State’s schedules stood out to me. Let’s summarize their home games against the three levels in the conference:

Looking at the graph or table of schedule difficulty, Clemson’s schedule ranks just below the middle in difficulty. But upon closer examination, it is not a desirable schedule for a team amongst the muddled middle. No one fighting for a spot on the NCAAT bubble wants to “waste” their home games against the bottom of the conference.

 

2015/2016

As I expect most already know, State has UNC and WF as its two defined rivals. Next year’s schedule has already been announced and State will have:

H/A:    UNC, WF, Duke, FSU

Home:    Miami, GT, Clemson, L’ville, BC

Away:    UVA, VT, Pitt, SYR, ND

So we should expect State’s schedule to be in the upper-half of the conference in difficulty once again.   Click here for the rest of the conference.

 

CONCLUSIONS

The conference is too big.

10 teams is the maximum size where round-robin schedules in football and basketball are practical. A 12 team conference would be acceptable if you played 9 conference games in football and 18 games in basketball. But I didn’t put this entry together just to make a “Master of the Obvious” conclusion.

This entry isn’t about conclusions as much as just understanding the impacts of unbalanced scheduling. There is no way to eliminate the issues illustrated above, but you could randomize the effects. But the desire to protect some inherent rivalries has at least two unforeseen consequences:

– You have to create “unnatural” rivalries to balance the natural ones

– Creating rivalries will tend to bias certain team’s schedules towards the top or the bottom of the conference.

But the main conclusion that coaches and AD’s need to draw is that you can no longer count on a tough ACC schedule to cover a piss-poor OOC schedule. At least that’s one problem that State fans don’t have to worry about.

About VaWolf82

Engineer living in Central Va. and senior curmudgeon amongst SFN authors One wife, two kids, one dog, four vehicles on insurance, and four phones on cell plan...looking forward to empty nest status. Graduated 1982

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Home Forums Variations in ACC BB Schedules

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  • #79464
    VaWolf82
    Keymaster

    As we all know, the ginormous conferences have led to a situation where teams are technically in the same conference, but hardly ever play each other.
    [See the full post at: Variations in ACC BB Schedules]

    #79467
    rtpack24
    Participant

    It is all money driven. You are correct the 10 team conference is the best for the two major revenue sports. 12 should be the max but that will never happen. Who knows what the landscape will look like in another 3-4 yrs.

    #79472
    Trout
    Participant

    Very well done and an interesting analysis.

    How much of the a factor is the “we had to play you, you had to play us” in this? For example, we got a 16 win factor by playing UVA. They got a 10 win factor by playing us.

    #79477
    VaWolf82
    Keymaster

    I guess a head-to-head comparison might give different results than looking at the conference as a whole.

    But you could still do a head-to-head comparison using the same technique. For instance, UVA and State played each other and both played WF, so the difference in schedule between these two teams would be:

    State: UNC and Clemson
    UVA: L’ville and VT

    Glancing quickly at the matrix, I guess a head-to-head technique would flip UNC and Duke as to which had the hardest schedule. But the difference between the two schedules is slight no matter what technique you use.

    #79480
    VaWolf82
    Keymaster

    Trout, here’s a blurb from last year’s article:

    Line #1 is equivalent. Line #3 is identical. Line #4 is nearly equivalent. This leaves the variation in schedule strength between Duke, UNC, and State to the differences in just one opponent.

    Duke’s opponent (SYR) > State’s opponent (Pitt) > UNC’s opponent (State). So the difference in schedule difference between UNC and State…is that UNC played State twice.

    #79510
    Tau837
    Participant

    I wish the conference would consider going to three 5 team divisions for all sports that include Notre Dame as a full participant:

    North (a.k.a. the Big East division): Syracuse, BC, Pitt, Notre Dame, Louisville
    Central: State, UNC, Duke, UVA, VT
    South: FSU, Miami, GT, Clemson, Wake

    Admittedly, it feels artificial to stick Wake in the South division. But it seems like either them, UVA, or VT, as it does not make sense to split the Triangle universities.

    Anyway, in a system like this, you could move to a 23 game conference schedule, where each team plays every team in its division twice, every team in one other division twice, and every team in the remaining division once, with the latter two divisions alternating each year.

    That would not solve all of the schedule imbalance, but it would reduce it. It would also serve to rid us of the artificial “rivalries” that were mentioned above. And, other than possibly Wake and the rest of the Big 4 universities, it doesn’t feel like this setup would actually divorce any real/traditional rivalries. And, even where it does that, they still play 5 times every 3 seasons in this setup.

    One thing an odd numbered game schedule would mean is that half of the teams in the conference would have 12 home games and half would have 11. I suppose one answer to that is to bump it to 24 games and randomly play one team in the single game division twice. Or leave it, and ensure the teams with the extra road games are home for the Big 10 challenge, which means all teams could have 19 home games if they so choose.

    This season, State had 23 home games. So this would represent sacrificing 4 home games per season, at least for as long as teams are constrained to 31 total regular season games. Even though I would think that 3 extra home conference games would draw more attendance than games against the likes of Jackson State, Wofford, Jacksonville, USF, Charleston Southern, et al., I assume this would still be a net negative from a revenue perspective.

    It would also very likely serve to reduce the number of times teams would be willing to schedule non-conference road games, which would deprive us of occasional interesting matchups and potentially deprive programs of greater national exposure. And I expect the coaches wouldn’t like this because they would have less time to prepare their teams for the conference season.

    It also could make it more difficult to assess relative strength of teams in the ACC vs. other conferences, since they would have a reduced non-conference schedule to assess.

    But I don’t see conferences reverting and getting smaller again. So as a fan I would prefer something like this, even with the cons it represents. I realize it will never happen, though. At least not unless the NCAA bumps the max number of regular season games to 35 or so.

    #79532
    VaWolf82
    Keymaster

    you could move to a 23 game conference schedule,

    If you’re going to dream, you should start with something that might happen in this reality.

    #79536
    john of sparta
    Participant

    c’mon, man.
    it’s TV money.
    Pay to Play.

    #79571
    Tau837
    Participant

    you could move to a 23 game conference schedule,

    If you’re going to dream, you should start with something that might happen in this reality.

    There was a time when no one could envision an 18 game schedule. Or a 15 team ACC. Just saying.

    #79577
    13OT
    Participant

    If you divide the ACC into three basketball divisions, I think everyone would agree that the ACC North should be BC, Syracuse, Pitt, ND and Louisville. They would also agree that division rivals should play each other twice each season.

    The problem would be dividing up the rest of the ACC. If the league would allow two out-of-division primary playing partners, then you could split the Big Four yet maintain those rivalries twice a season; otherwise, I don’t think it makes financial or geographical sense, let alone common sense, to continue disallowing local rivals to play each other twice every season. That means NOT SPLITTING the Big Four into an odd-man-out setup.

    If State, for instance, could play each of its four division basketball rivals twice, plus have two primary playing partners, that would comprise twelve games, with six more among the other 8 teams. To avoid not playing someone at all during the season, the two primary playing partners could be rotated out once every few years to make room for the other two teams, assuring the Wolfpack it would play everyone at least once each season.

    A better solution to me would be to go to a 20-game league schedule, allowing those two extra league games without a team having to be rotated out. The fans I talk to, and there are many, WANT more conference games, yet the league coaches and apparently the ACC hierarchy continue to oppose them.

    Television and the ACC have not been kind to the Wolfpack or Deacons. The ACC (and ESPN) killed the State-Maryland rivalry by making it the Duke-Maryland rivalry instead (and making the Devils and Terps primary playing partners), which to me never reached the intensity of the Pack vs Terps. Now, the prime expansion teams, Syracuse and Louisville, are being pushed by ESPN to play the Blues, with State and Wake being relegated to ESPNU or more likely the local tv network. ACC officials sure don’t seem to mind.

    Splitting the ACC into separate football divisions has been disastrous for attendance and longstanding rivalries, especially in the Big Four. I want to see State play Duke and UVA every season, not once every decade. I don’t want to see State playing teams like South Alabama three times over a period when Duke doesn’t show up even once. I want to see Miami, Georgia Tech and especially Virginia Tech on our schedule more often rather than be forced to see Syracuse and Boston College EVERY season. And I want to see a 9th game added to the conference schedule, which would help achieve this as well as put the Big Four back on each other’s schedule every season.

    Anyone who’s seen State’s OOC football schedule for next season plus our home league opponents can’t be very happy with this turkey. It’s a big part of why I’m not going to attend any more football games after being there for the past twenty seasons.

    ACC Baseball teams play 40 or more games every season. So they get to play more league opponents, right? Uh-uh. State, despite having so many home games this spring, has not ONE home game vs Duke, Carolina or Wake. The ACC can take its league expansion and PC scheduling and shove ’em where the sun don’t shine!

    #79613
    choppack1
    Participant

    Why don’t we just jettison Notre Dame, Pitt, Louisville, Miami, cincy or navy to “the alaska” region in honor of Gary Williams.

    Nice work vawolf. Next year’s schedule could be very tough if wake turns a corner.

    #79614
    graywolf
    Participant

    CONCLUSIONS

    The conference is too big.

    It is but its going to get bigger before it gets smaller. Rumors abound that espn and nbc are working on deal for ND to become full member in football and to add a 16th team to the league……it’s ALL about the TV money.

    I

      really

    miss the old days of the ACC. Bigger is not always better and money will eventually destroy college athletics if it has not already.

    #79616
    BJD95
    Keymaster

    It’s all about money. If the TV money was sufficient to outweigh the extra home game revenue, it would happen. Apparently…it ain’t.

    I do think centralized scheduling will eventually come to college football, when super conferences break away and form their own NFL-style playoff system.

    #79630
    brqan925
    Participant

    I enjoyed this post.

    One thing that jumped out at me was this passage:

    “No one fighting for a spot on the NCAAT bubble wants to ‘waste’ their home games against the bottom of the conference.”

    I understand the logic but it still seemed odd coming from a fan of a team that lost on the road at two sub-100 RPI teams that played on the first day of the conference tournament.

    #79635
    choppack1
    Participant

    Its not though. It’s a fact that a home game against a bottom feeder doesn’t help your RPI. OTOH, a road win almost always results in a good bump using the “new” formula.

    #79662
    VaWolf82
    Keymaster

    North (a.k.a. the Big East division): Syracuse, BC, Pitt, Notre Dame, Louisville
    Central: State, UNC, Duke, UVA, VT
    South: FSU, Miami, GT, Clemson, Wake

    Why is this in State’s best interests? To be more specific, why is it in State’s interest to have amongst the toughest basketball schedules year after year?

    #79664
    VaWolf82
    Keymaster

    I understand the logic but it still seemed odd coming from a fan of a team that lost on the road at two sub-100 RPI teams that played on the first day of the conference tournament.

    Why should piss-poor results change my logic?

    #79668
    Tau837
    Participant

    North (a.k.a. the Big East division): Syracuse, BC, Pitt, Notre Dame, Louisville
    Central: State, UNC, Duke, UVA, VT
    South: FSU, Miami, GT, Clemson, Wake

    Why is this in State’s best interests?

    I didn’t post it specifically because I think it would be good for State. I posted it because I think it is an improvement for the conference over the current system. And because as a fan I would like to see State play both UNC and Duke twice every season.

    That being said, how much different is it for State’s schedule? Worst case, 1 more game vs. Duke and UVA. But possibly at least partially offset by 1 fewer game vs. Louisville, Notre Dame, Syracuse, et al. and 1 more game vs. VT.

    To be more specific, why is it in State’s interest to have amongst the toughest basketball schedules year after year?

    Well, it seems that this season is a perfect example of why. State has 13 losses, including 2 bad losses, and is just above .500 in conference at 11-9. Yet they are viewed to be safely in the tournament, perhaps as high as an 8 seed.

    Why is that? First reason is their top SOS, which is exactly what you are asking about. So it is self-evident.

    The second reason is the 3 top 25 wins. Well, you can’t get those wins without playing the games.

    #79685
    13OT
    Participant

    If State and Wake were switched in the above scenario, I doubt many State fans would like it. With the ACC’s determination to make sure teams are forced to play each other regardless of rivalries and geography, any Big Four team that ended up as an odd-man-out would be screwed big-time. The current system might leave State and Carolina as out-of-division opponents twice a season, but it would take away our home-and-away setup from Wake like it already does with Duke, while the other 3 Big Four members would return to twice a season games vs each other.

    As for seeds, I’m still not convinced that State will get higher than an 8 or 9 seed, and in fact could end up a 10 or even lower. Yes, they finished strong except for BC and Duke, but they SUCKED most of January and part of February. I hope I’m wrong here, but to me the Pack had way too many WTF losses this season to merit a seeding higher than a 10.

    And had we been allowed to have played Duke TWICE this season as we had historically done until John Swofford came along, I seriously doubt we would have been ambushed by Duke in a 3rd meeting in the ACCT.

    I’m one of those who’d like to see State abandon this GD conference and go it alone if need be, because this league has turned Blue and has clearly demonstrated that it doesn’t give a tinker’s damn about State and Wake Forest. So much for founding members.

    #79712
    Tau837
    Participant

    Someone mentioned that the ACC is working on making Notre Dame a full conference member and adding a 16th team. Anyone know who the prospective 16th team might be?

    Maybe that would set the stage for four 4 team divisions, with one of them reuniting the Big 4. That would mean home and home with division opponents and one game against all others in the conference to get to the 18 game schedule. That would ensure imbalanced SOS, but I would still prefer that as a fan to what we have now.

    Of course, in that scenario, Swofford would probably come up with a worse system.

    #79723
    Wulfpack
    Participant

    As for seeds, I’m still not convinced that State will get higher than an 8 or 9 seed, and in fact could end up a 10 or even lower. Yes, they finished strong except for BC and Duke, but they SUCKED most of January and part of February. I hope I’m wrong here, but to me the Pack had way too many WTF losses this season to merit a seeding higher than a 10.

    You really do have a thick skull on this. It was just a couple weeks ago you were saying we were NIT bound.

    The way this works is we will be seeded relative to our peers. There aren’t many others that have the big wins that we have. EVERYBODY has WTF losses. We had two. No biggie. We showed very well in the best conference in America. Beat a bunch of tournament teams. So, prepared to be wrong, again.

    #79840
    VaWolf82
    Keymaster

    I posted it because I think it is an improvement for the conference over the current system.

    How is setting blatantly unbalanced and unfair schedules an “improvement for the conference”?

    First reason is their top SOS, which is exactly what you are asking about. So it is self-evident.

    What is self-evident is that State was able to put together a great SOS without needing the hardest conference schedule. What is also self-evident is that consistently having the toughest schedule in the conference would make it even more difficult to earn a two-round bye in the ACCT.

    – A complete round-robin schedule is fair, but will never happen.
    – More conference games would make the schedules more fair, but are unlikely to happen.
    – Completely random schedules would still leave some teams with harder schedules in a given year, but should tend to even out over time and is as fair as we could get.

    What we have now is not fair, but not expected to change.

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