Hole-mageddon Post-Game Semi-Rational Discussion

Yes, that sucked. We went into Chapel Hill, played poorly to start…then clawed our way back to a small lead with all the momentum in the world. Then we crapped the bed down the stretch on the way to a blowout loss. A B+ effort by the Pack wins that game easily…and we didn’t even come close. One high profile individual didn’t even bring his D- game, or in all probability, multiple lobes of his brain.

But this team is still on track to go 11-7 and land no worse than a 6 seed. We CAN still be a very dangerous team in the post-season. This was ONE horrible game, at an inopportune time. After all, losing to a blue (especially light blue) hurts way worse than a clunker in Winston-Salem. We can’t let it beat us in Tallahassee and Atlanta, too.

Let’s also talk about coaching. Yes, I did (and still do) criticize his re-inserting Calvin, when the Purvis/Buckets/Zo/Woo/Talibeard five were clicking on all cylinders. But I do understand that it’s a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” scenario. We absolutely NEED Calvin in Calvinistic form, or you can spend time outdoors with your family this March. He’s essential. You can’t lose him. You need him to feel he still has the coach’s and his teammates’ trust.

And let’s remember how to be nuanced. Mark Gottfried is not primarily an in-game strategist. He certainly has his moments (he was a maestro at Clemson, when so many players were out of synch), but his strengths are primarily as a recruiter, motivator, and mentor. ALMOST NOBODY is an expert in all phases. Roy Williams is VERY similar, though with a different temperament. He also gets critized sometimes as “sucking” in-game…when really, it’s just not his BEST skill. He’s a sure-fire first ballot Hall of Famer. Not saying MG is THAT…but he still has plenty of ceiling, and can succeed as who he is. Saying “he’s no better than Sidney Lowe on game day” and such…that’s just nonsense. We all take things too far in the heat of the moment, but I have seen that enough that I want to nip it in the bud.

Let this also be a general plea for moderation and critical thinking. It’s ok to criticize, and point out things that annoy us. Nobody should criticize other fans for not being 100% butterflies and sunshine. But it’s silly to go overboard in the other direction, and act like our basketball program and even this season are somehow lost cause dumpster fires. They’re not. Kids, I went to NC State from 1991-95. I know a dumpster fire when I see one.

Our coaches and players need to feel the sting of this rivalry loss, but they also need to learn from what happened and be better for the experience. It’s all still right in our hands.

About BJD95

1995 NC State graduate, sufferer of Les and MOC during my entire student tenure. An equal-opportunity objective critic and analyst of Wolfpack sports.

12-13 Basketball Big Four Rivals Mark Gottfried

171 Responses to Hole-mageddon Post-Game Semi-Rational Discussion

  1. Wulfpack 02/25/2013 at 8:23 AM #

    Wood must be on the floor. Take him out and we have no outside presence. He gets the guys down low easy buckets with the attention he commands. He is also a heady player, though lousy defensively.

  2. Rick 02/25/2013 at 8:31 AM #

    I see I have become the CJ Leslie of the SFN boards.
    LOL

  3. coach13 02/25/2013 at 9:19 AM #

    We have a love/hate relationship with Leslie because he plays terrible defense, or sometimes no defense at all. He hawks opportunities to jump up and swat the ball and that looks good when he connects. Also gets some obvious goaltending. He goes for the steel and that looks good unless he ole’s. But his ability to play fundamental defense and be engaged the entire game on the defensive end simply has not materialized. That’s why we start “Hating” on CJ in games like UNC. He did not mask it with awesome offense. We all tolerate and awe at his spaghetti man antics with the ball and how he can get it in the hole. But let him struggle offensively and suddenly we think he is tanking the game at both ends. No. He tanks it on defense game in and game out, when it comes to fundamentals. Sure he gets the occasional swat, but he is more often than not caught watching or out of position to make a play or get a rebound. Its the main reason we have difficulty blowing out the weakest of opponents. AND unfortunately, Brown seems joined at the hip with Leslie. When one struggles both of their games seem to be down a notch.

    Remember these two were part of the trio that took a chance with Lowe. They took that plunge together so the deep tie on the court shows out. Brown and Leslie needed to be broken down and rebuilt coming into college. I don’t know if Lowe was capable of that. While it was good for our program, not sure Raleigh was what these 2 guys needed. maybe they would have remained flawed anyway. I think these two played MAJOR COLLEGE BASKETBALL their freshman years based on what they knew coming in, and developed some bad habits or maybe didn’t develop the mental toughness needed. Not sure it is completely their fault. My thoughts driving into work this morning.

  4. newt 02/25/2013 at 9:25 AM #

    We won 4 conference games the year before Gottfried was hired. We are on-track for 10+ conference wins this year. He really only has one full recruiting class. Name the sophomores on this team…

    You don’t win every game. Winning on the road is hard. At home, we have only lost one game, to Miami, on a last-second tip-in, starting a freshman in place of our All-ACC point guard. Miami is undefeated in the conference. They beat Duke and UNC by 26 and 27 points.

    So on the whole, we’re doing pretty good.

    Yes, I just cut and pasted what I posted after the Clemson game verbatim above.

  5. Tau837 02/25/2013 at 10:02 AM #

    I cannot disagree more with suggesting any criticism of Leslie applies to Wood. Especially when it is mostly contradicted in the same post (smart player, smart decisions, etc.).

    Is Wood a perfect player? Obviously not. But he is a lot closer to getting the maximum out of his ability than Leslie. Does anyone here question Wood’s effort? I don’t. But plenty, including me, question Leslie’s effort. There is no excuse for not giving max effort, especially for a player who is arguably the best on the team.

    Yes, Wood is the 4th best player on the team, yet we need him on the floor as much as possible due to his skill set and the fact that his mere presence opens up the offense for his teammates. He is also a willing passer and doesn’t turn it over much.

    Can you say the same about Leslie? Do we need him on the floor as much as possible? Not on Saturday. Does he make his teammates better? He certainly draws plenty of defensive attention, but he is so unwilling to give up the ball that it doesn’t translate into much benefit for his teammates. He isn’t a willing passer and leads the team in turnovers. When he is engaged, he is still a positive impact player, but when he is checked out, he is an overall negative. That’s what we saw Saturday.

    I am really having a hard time understanding the comparison being made here.

  6. Whiteshoes67 02/25/2013 at 10:50 AM #

    ^Agree with Tau, no way are Wood and Leslie comparable. Leslie and Wood have both won some games for us. Leslie’s had some outstanding rebounding performances, there have been flashes of more solid defense, and an improved mid-range game. But I’d argue that Wood, at least, is far more consistent.

    I agree that he probably doesn’t give you as much as he should with the minutes he gets. He’s not a good rebounder despite his size, he can’t create his own shot, and is a liability on defense at times against quicker or stronger players. For me, that’s why I’d prefer a more even distrubition of minutes between Wood, Purvis, and Warren. I think replacing Purvis in the lineup was a huge mistake (especially against UNC) despite some relatively poor showings. He’s a shot creator, for himself and others, he defends well, especially for a freshman, and he’s outstanding on the break.

  7. packbackr04 02/25/2013 at 10:54 AM #

    just had a UNC fan ask me if there were any truth to the rumors that Gott stepped out on his wife again and has been drinking with the players. Please tell me this is not true… anybody else hear anything?

  8. Whiteshoes67 02/25/2013 at 10:58 AM #

    ^ say it ain’t so

  9. Wulfpack 02/25/2013 at 11:47 AM #

    When the coach calls a player out, you know he has had it up to here with said player. Hopefully said player gets with the program.

  10. vtpackfan 02/25/2013 at 12:20 PM #

    Chemistry isn’t the issue. Gelling these last four games and carrying it over into tourney is. BBall isn’t a “brotherhood” or comradery essence needed. That’s for sports like hockey and possibly football.

  11. john of sparta 02/25/2013 at 1:24 PM #

    pb04 and ws67,
    Google auto-complete
    to Mark Gottfried gives:
    1. coach.
    2. affair.

  12. JT 02/25/2013 at 2:09 PM #

    Gott is a hell of a coach and I’m thankful he is here. You listen to f**king Tarheel fans for current gossip on our coach? Damn. F**k all UNC fans.

    This team is good though frustrating, but how could a team with CJ Leslie as its most talented player not be? His attitude and skill set are both frustrating. The rest of the team is all good- Lo shows much more positive emotion than CJ and his problems arise when he tries too hard. Lo is the true NBA baller on this team. Purvis and Warren are just freshmen. Same for Lewis. But all three are gonna be really good. I love Scott Wood and I love Howell. If there is any reason to love Gott it’s embodied by Richard “The Beast” Howell and his development. What would K have done with Howell? Turned him into Eric Meek?

    Gott is the man and I totally have his back. Give anybody a 6 man rotation (maybe 6.5) and in a big game that will be troublesome. Long story short, Gott is gonna be here a long time and he is gonna win big. Personal guarantee from JT.

  13. vtpackfan 02/25/2013 at 2:25 PM #

    I bet Vandenburg would be hilarious with out on the town. All the Aussies I’ve known can really hold their liquor down and are funny but not in a clownish, reckless way.

    Go for it Coach. Spread the wealth and pump some life into those gin mill tills of Raleighwood.

  14. Pack1998 02/25/2013 at 2:35 PM #

    Any UNC fan talking about “affair” should do research on their very own Mack Brown and Dooley. Hate to go there, but it is well known.

    Let’s keep it about b-ball here.

  15. JeremyH 02/25/2013 at 3:03 PM #

    I agree with BJD. And I think that we aren’t trending well, but there is such a disparity in how we perform home vs. away that I’m going to reserve my full judgement until I see performance on neutral courts in those games that matter the most. In all honesty, our team deserves fans that are a little more even keel through the ups and downs.

    About CJ Leslie. He’s a good player and I hope he gets better in the team dynamic. About this thread, holy crap I’m glad I’m not in the position where my body of work is nitpicked in real-time, after I leave the office, and am fired over and again by crowds of people I’ve never had the pleasure of meeting.

    He did extremely well for us in the NCAAs last year. And I hope the “Carolina sky is falling” recent event does not mess with his confidence too much. He is too important to our core. To call him a “head case” might have some truth to it, but at the same time its downright malicious to repeat it.

    Note also, about Zo, I don’t think his ankle is 100% yet as he didn’t try to take Paige off the dribble much where he typically dominates. We need an effective Zo to win, as demonstrated by our mid-season losing streak.

  16. packalum44 02/25/2013 at 3:06 PM #

    Was not expecting to win this game. We were dogs and are only marginally better than UNC.

    General comment, but his is not a mentally tough team. Can’t win a big game when it counts.

    Biggest shame is that, to have a 4 seed in the ACC tournament, we have to win out to tie UNC’s record (assuming Duke beats them in the Dean Dome) to have a shot at the 4 seed.

    I really want to win a friggin’ ACC tournament before it implodes.

  17. 44rules 02/25/2013 at 3:27 PM #

    Well, the starter Sloan lost for ’75 was 7-4 Tommy Burleson, the MVP of the ’74 ACC title game against Maryland. I also remember David Thompson and cramps.
    And yes, Phil Ford. I still hate him with a passion.

  18. TheCOWDOG 02/25/2013 at 3:46 PM #

    BTW.

    I know Phil Ford. And like the guy..

    Spence and Carr weren’t 7’2, but were very good. DT played all but one minute in that 4 point loss.

  19. Wulfpack 02/25/2013 at 5:34 PM #

    Not just fans on Calvin. Gott was all over him in the presser.

  20. JohnGalt78 02/25/2013 at 11:46 PM #

    CJ is back. CJ is Calvin’s default, back up style. Calvin plays team ball. Calvin works harder because it takes more effort to be a team player. CJ is lazy and self-absorbed. CJ is using moments throughout the game to display his offensive talents. Calvin played both ends when he was around. I miss him.

  21. JeremyH 02/26/2013 at 1:45 AM #

    Easy for you (us) to say, but we’ve created a monster. Not “us” but the sports world incl. fans. Being hoisted up by the student body after Duke, being on two of ten top plays for monster jams. Being the hero must be one of the most intoxicating feelings there is, and you want to tear him down for trying the seize it again. Easy for you (us).

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