The State of State 2.0 – Women’s Basketball

AD & Department Kay Yow Non-Revenue Rankings & Lists Stat of the Day39

Women’s Basketball

I. Records
ACC Record: 284-168 (.628)
ACC Record Pre-Fowler: 216-102 (.679)
ACC Record Under Fowler: 68-66 (.507)

State’s all-time ACC winning percentage has dropped 5.1% since Lee Fowler has been AD. Our ACC winning percentage in the 9 years under Fowler is 17.2% worse than the preceeding 23 seasons and is statistically significant (Z test with a p-value of 0.0008, p-value less than 0.05 would be significant).
w-basketball-acc-records2
Note: Red points are ACC championship seasons

II. Championships
ACC Titles: 4 (1980, 1985, 1987, 1991)
ACC Titles Under Fowler: 0

All-Time ACC Titles
t1. Maryland – 9
t1. North Carolina – 9
3. Duke – 5
4. NC State – 4
5. Virginia – 3
6. Clemson – 2

All-Time National Championships
t1. Maryland – 1
t1. North Carolina – 1

Current ACC Champ: Maryland
Current National Champ: UConn

III. Lee Fowler’s Tenure (2000-2001 to 2008-2009)

w-basketball-acc1
1. Duke: 119-15 (.888)
2. North Carolina: 103-31 (.769)
3. Maryland: 78-56 (.582)
4. Florida St: 76-58 (.567)
t5. NC State: 68-66 (.507)
t5. Virginia: 68-66 (.507)
7. Boston College: 23-33 (.411)
8. Georgia Tech: 55-79 (.410)
9. Clemson: 45-89 (.336)
10. Virginia Tech: 22-48 (.314)
11. Miami: 16-54 (.229)
12. Wake Forest: 28-106 (.209)

ACC Titles
t1. Duke – 4
t1. North Carolina – 4
3. Maryland – 1

NCAA Tournaments
1. Duke – 9
2. North Carolina – 8
3. Maryland – 7
t4. Florida St – 6
t4. Virginia – 6
t6. Boston College – 5
t6. NC State – 5
t6. Virginia Tech – 5
9. Georgia Tech – 4
t10. Clemson – 2
t10. Miami – 2
12. Wake Forest – 0

Head To Head Records (ACC Regular Season only)
w-basketball-head-to-head-reg
1. Virginia Tech: 5-0 (1.000)
2. Wake Forest: 16-2 (.889)
3. Miami: 5-1 (.833)
4. Clemson: 8-6 (.571)
t5. Florida St: 7-6 (.538)
t5. Virginia: 7-6 (.538)
7. Boston College: 4-4 (.500)
8. Georgia Tech: 6-7 (.462)
9. Maryland: 5-8 (.385)
10. North Carolina: 4-14 (.222)
11. Duke: 1-12 (.077)

Head To Head Records (All Games)
w-basketball-head-to-head-all
1. Virginia Tech: 5-0 (1.000)
2. Wake Forest: 16-3 (.842)
3. Miami: 5-1 (.833)
4. Clemson: 12-7 (.632)
5. Florida St: 9-6 (.600)
t6. Virginia: 7-7 (.500)
t6. Boston College: 4-4 (.500)
8. Georgia Tech: 6-7 (.462)
9. Maryland: 6-9 (.400)
10. North Carolina: 4-18 (.182)
11. Duke: 2-13 (.133)

ACC Finish by Year
w-basketball-acc-finish
Note: I am planning on keeping these entries focused on statistics without any commentary but in the case of women’s basketball the obvious factor of Kay Yow’s health has to be kept in mind.

As usual, comments, observations and questions are welcome. Up next: men’s basketball, baseball or a non-revenue sport to be named later.

About WV Wolf

Graduated from NCSU in 1996 with a degree in statistics. Born and inbred in West "By God" Virginia and now live in Raleigh where I spend my time watching the Wolfpack, the Mountaineers and the Carolina Hurricanes as well as making bar graphs for SFN. I'm @wvncsu on the Twitter machine.

AD & Department Kay Yow Non-Revenue Rankings & Lists Stat of the Day

39 Responses to The State of State 2.0 – Women’s Basketball

  1. Paramarine 07/21/2009 at 10:01 AM #

    For all of his faults, I’m not willing to place the state of WBB on Lee. Coach Yow was our program — she built it from nothing. It can be debated what role her health played in the slide to mediocrity, but the only honorable thing to do was allow her to coach until she decided it was time to quit.

    That time has come, and Coach Harper is at the helm. She hasn’t even had her first game, and we’re already casting aspersions?

    Had Stephanie Glance been awarded the job, I’d think your post would be fair, as I would view it as a continuation of the status quo. Had your entry not contained that first paragraph, I wouldn’t feel compelled to comment beyond stating that you posted data, but no information that’s currently relevant.

  2. skitchwolf 07/21/2009 at 10:08 AM #

    I think you are correct to assume that Coach Yow’s health was one contributing factor in the decline of women’s basketball. However, I also believe that the overall decline in the general perception of Wolfpack athletics must also be a factor. No one who has followed women’s basketball can doubt Coach Yow’s on-court abilities (even during her “down” times). So, one must take a look at recruiting. Recruiting is clearly impacted by the overall perception of the school/athletic program and that has taken a beating during Fowler’s tenure. The attitude that “mediocrity is good enough” that seems to have been rewarded during the last 10 years is an anchor that pulls down all of the programs – even if some individual coaches are really top-notch. It requires an extraordinary coach to overcome this impediment. The one guy who (to date) shows some promise of doing this is TOB. If so, football might be able to help the other programs overcome some of the “bad mojo” that Fowler’s lack of vision has fostered.

  3. VaWolf82 07/21/2009 at 10:21 AM #

    Here’s the numbers that I’ve never understood for WBB:

    Revenue………$339k
    Expenses……..$1.7M

    Per athlete, WBB is the second most expensive sport for State.

    http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/GetOneInstitutionData.aspx

    EDIT
    It is unlikely that the WBB revenue numbers include whatever little State gets for the WBB TV contract(s). If you ever see the WBB TV contract discussed, be sure and get the link posted here for future discussions.

  4. VaWolf82 07/21/2009 at 10:24 AM #

    Coach Harper is at the helm. She hasn’t even had her first game, and we’re already casting aspersions?

    Maybe you could quote the line(s) that were “casting aspersions” at Coach Harper.

  5. Paramarine 07/21/2009 at 10:36 AM #

    Casting aspersions about the current state of program, not the coach. I cited the coach as a significant change. Apologies for not making that part clear.

  6. Pack84 07/21/2009 at 10:53 AM #

    “VaWolf82 Says:
    July 21st, 2009 at 10:21 am
    Here’s the numbers that I’ve never understood for WBB:

    Revenue………$339k
    Expenses……..$1.7M

    Per athlete, WBB is the second most expensive sport for State.

    http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/GetOneInstitutionData.aspx”

    WBB numbers do indeed look odd. One is left to wonder how they are spending so much money.

  7. VaWolf82 07/21/2009 at 10:56 AM #

    It is important to note that the numbers are presented with very little commentary….so there is absolutely no attempt to “cast aspersions” that I can detect. Are you saying we shouldn’t document the recent past just because we’ve had a coaching change?

  8. Par Shooter 07/21/2009 at 11:20 AM #

    I would contend that the numbers presented in this entry are strong support for Fowler’s decision to look outside the program for a new head coach and a fresh start rather than simply hiring Glance. Time will tell if that was a good hire and it probably could have been handled better from a PR standpoint; however, at this point in time I give him credit for this move. The “easy button” would have been to hire Glance but he did not take that route and also did not thrash around in a very public and embarrassing search. It did take a while but I’m willing to forgive that if he got the right person and the time wasn’t spent reading agonizing things about our program in the public domain.

    Also, at this point it appears that Kellie Harper is a good fit and that he made a good hire here. I realize it’s waaay premature to make a judgment since she hasn’t even coached a game for us yet but I like our odds with her at the helm. Young, energetic, success at a lower level, good pedigree and connections – she appears to be the total package.

  9. nycfan 07/21/2009 at 11:34 AM #

    I think the relative decline of States WBB program pre-dates Fowler — for whatever reason(s), the program has not been the same since the early 90s. State missed the increased interest (again relatively speaking) in women’s hoops that happened in the mid-to-late 90s and was in large part a result of the emergence of the UConn program so close to the emergence of ESPN, and remained a largely regional team.

    I think Yow’s health more than anything else probably stymied State’s recruiting over the past few years.

    Kelly Jolly was among my most hated players in WBB, but there is no denying the result of the teams she played on or her early coaching success at WCU. I think State fans need to give her some room to rebuild the program, though — this upcoming season, in particular, could be pretty rough. But she already has State on the lists of some top talent, so it will be interesting to see what she does given a few years to reconstruct the roster.

    In any event, whatever the strikes are on Fowler’s resume, I don’t see anything in WBB to hold against him. He rightly supported Yow’s desire to coach as long as humanly possible and frankly showed some spine to go out and get an up-and-comer as coach rather than settling on the sentimental favorite.

  10. WV Wolf 07/21/2009 at 11:37 AM #

    If you go back and look at the recent State of State football entry it is set up in the exact same format as this entry. Whenever I do an entry on men’s basketball or baseball or any other sport it will also be in the same format. Whatever problem Paramarine has with the first paragraph, there is no attempt to skew women’s basketball. The football entry has the exact same comparisons.

    All I am doing is presenting historic numbers and stats on our various programs, including comparing the results under Fowler to the results before his time. I am leaving the discussion of the reasons behind any trends those numbers might show to the readers and other authors on the blog.

    The usual factors to discuss are the AD, the coach, facilites, etc. But with women’s basketball, in addition to those factors there was also the unique factor of Coach Yow’s health, a factor that does not affect any other sport at NC State or was a factor at any other school. That is why I felt compelled to make that note at the end of the entry.

  11. VaWolf82 07/21/2009 at 11:58 AM #

    Time will tell if that was a good hire and it probably could have been handled better from a PR standpoint; however, at this point in time I give him credit for this move.

    No one has a crystal ball when hiring someone from a mid-major school. But there are some obvious traits that you want to see during the interview process. Coach Harper has head coaching experience and a good record. Her interviews to date suggest that she will be a good ambassador of NC State and WBB with the media, alumni, and recruits. In time we will know how successful WBB is under Coach Harper…but we don’t need time to say that she was a good hire.

  12. Classof89 07/21/2009 at 12:04 PM #

    Harper seems energetic, although the fact she’s already had turnover at one of the assistant positions was a little bit of a red flag in my book (it was an early indicator that Chuckles wasn’t cut out to be a head coach in football), but then again I don’t know the exact story behind that and suspect it has nothing to do with Harper’s personality (at least I hope so…).

    And, contrary to to the assertions of some of the Yow personality cult members that Glance was a great coach who would be snapped up by some womens basketball powerhouse, she has instead taken a “home cooking” position as head of Yow’s charitable foundation. What happened to all the coaching job offers that were supposed to come streaming in for her…

  13. StateFans 07/21/2009 at 12:45 PM #

    I wonder how some people get through the day with the conclusions they draw out of thin air.

  14. bradleyb123 07/21/2009 at 12:48 PM #

    Since we had Coach Yow long before Jed got here, and only recently lost her, I don’t blame Jed (directly) for WBB’s downward spiral, except, as someone mentioned above, for the way he has led the downfall of the entire athletics department and our overall image. I agree that surely has affected WBB recruiting to some degree.

    As for Jed’s direct impact on the WBB program, I like the new coaching hire. This is one of the few things I think that Jed has gotten right in his time at NC State, although she has yet to prove anything. I think if Jed had just hired Glance per Kay’s dying wish, it would have been a case of following the status quo. Jed was “damned if he did and damned if he didn’t” in this regard. Half the fans will complain that he didn’t honor Kay’s wishes, and half will complain that he would have better honored Kay by hiring the best coach available, not just the one she requested as her replacement.

    Basically, no matter how the new coach works out, we will be able to find something to blame Jed for in her hiring. And that’s fine with me because I want him gone as much as anyone! But it’s not really fair to ole Jed in this instance.

  15. gopack4eva 07/21/2009 at 1:06 PM #

    I am still extremely bitter on the fact that U Jed did not act upon the wishes of our late coach. but having met Coach Harper i believe she can very well be the type we need in WBB(not to take away anything from Coach Glance and the former staff). That being said..she has her work cut out for her as she has started out in the negative due to Foulup’s decision to change away from a “cancer school”.

  16. howlie 07/21/2009 at 2:04 PM #

    The point of all the graphs–and they all look the same–is the slow death decline over the last ten years in virtually every sport, across the board, at NC State.

    How the Board of Trustees can look [or rather ignore] these graphs of impotence in sport after sport after sport and 1) provide a letter of support for the AD, and 2) allow him to continue to neuter & dismember the entire athletics department is beyond me.

    IT COULD BE ARGUED that KAY built her program, and had a right to try to maintain it to her death.
    The real question is how has Fowler “earned” his ‘right’ to stay until the athletic department is dead? Though he is not sick, he ‘manages’ the department as if he is near death. Like an 3rd world despot or a swollen tick, he lives well-engourged from the department he is supposed to keep healthy. He will, one day, cruise off in the sunset smiling–his victim (who paid him to care for her) will be left for dead.

  17. PackMan97 07/21/2009 at 3:58 PM #

    gopack4eva,

    I don’t see Harper as starting out in the negative. In fact, I see it as a huge positive that we went outside the family.

    I loved Yow, but it’s been clear for the past decade, maybe even two decades going back to the end of the Valvano era that the elite game had passed her by. She simply couldn’t compete with Duke and Carolina or the elite of college basketball. Was she still a great coach? No doubt. State usually finished near the top (but not at the top) of the conference and represented well. But she had basically hit a ceiling and the one time she broke through with a Final Four she was not able to build on it. That’s not to diminish what Yow did for NC State or women’s basketball, only to acknowledge that she was no longer competing with the Duke’s, UNC-CH’s, UConns, Tenn, etc of the game.

    To me, hiring Glance would have been the easy out. It would have been a continuation of the mediocrity that has become Wolfpack athletics. I applaud Fowler for looking for some youngblood who can shake up our program.

    It is a risk, but it’s one I fully support regardless of how it turns out. Our athletic department needs new blood.

  18. wolfprof 07/21/2009 at 4:44 PM #

    Unofficial word is that Harper’s choice as associate head coach had a “resume issue.” George O’Leary comes to mind.

  19. bradleyb123 07/21/2009 at 5:03 PM #

    ^ “Unofficial word is that Harper’s choice as associate head coach had a “resume issue.” George O’Leary comes to mind.”

    Is this something that is coming out now, about Harper? Or did Glance have a resume issue, which led to Harper’s hiring in the first place?

    UPDATE: Never mind. I just read your comment again. I missed the word “associate” in there the first time I read it, and thought you were talking about the head coaching hire.

  20. Wufpacker 07/21/2009 at 5:33 PM #

    “gopack4eva Says:
    July 21st, 2009 at 1:06 pm
    I am still extremely bitter on the fact that U Jed did not act upon the wishes of our late coach. but having met Coach Harper i believe she can very well be the type we need in WBB(not to take away anything from Coach Glance and the former staff). That being said..she has her work cut out for her as she has started out in the negative due to Foulup’s decision to change away from a “cancer school”.”

    ^???

  21. Wufpacker 07/21/2009 at 5:44 PM #

    ^^^What is the “resume issue” that you are speaking of, and are you saying that it should be viewed as a negative against Harper herself? (I’m not saying that you are saying that…in fact I am honestly asking if you are because I cannot tell from your post if you are or not).

    Without knowing specifics, and this is the first time I’ve even heard of this “unofficial word”, I have a hard time reading anything negative about Harper into it.

    As far as the original subject of this thread, I agree with those that feel Fowler is not fully to blame for the steady decline of the WBB program, EXCEPT for the effect that the overall decline in perception of the Athletics Department as a whole might have had on recruiting or other aspects of the program. I agree that his hands were pretty well tied from a PR standpoint…however, even if they weren’t I doubt there would have been any great and wonderful moves made. But he does get credit for moving away from the status quo in the hiring of Coach Harper.

  22. ryebread 07/21/2009 at 6:18 PM #

    Some random thoughts….
    1) I’m no fan of Fowler.

    2) I admit that I was for Glance because I didn’t think that Fowler could hire a competent coach. After men’s bball (and what I’ve personally seen in volleyball), I’m at the point where I don’t trust him to make any hires. Yes, Glance would have been the easier hire and probably not the right hire, but I thought the odds were that we’d end up far worse and hurt the pipeline with our former players.

    3) Harper was a good hire. Lee (or the search committee) got this one right.

    4) I think Kay is what happens when you have a coaching legend at your school who has spent most of their career there. They build it from scratch, it peaks and then it naturally recedes at some point near their retirement. We saw it with Kay. FSU is seeing it with Bowden. I’d argue that Penn State has seen it with JoePa. I believe that Duke will see it with K unless he follows Dean’s lead at UNC and steps down before it happens. Recruiting took a hit because of what was happening with Kay more than any other reason (Fowler, whether Glance was a competent coach, etc.).

    5) It’s hard to ignore the overall downward trend under Fowler. Keep going with the original articles. This one strikes a chord with many due to Kay’s death, but this is a facts based approach and that is what is needed.

    6) I’m not sure I trust the data on ope.ed.gov. My guess is that schools aren’t reporting apples to apples numbers. Like with any large budget, there are ways to massage the numbers. Also, Duke and Wake seemingly have the exact same overall budgets in both revenues and expenses down to the dollar……

    7) If ope.ed.gov’s data is correct and the numbers are apples to apples (note I seriously doubt this), then the numbers about the total athletics budgets are somewhat telling:
    UNC: $61m
    NC State: $44m
    Any wonder why they pants us at virtually everything? I don’t like Fowler, but it is hard to ignore the discrepancy.

    8. If ope.ed.gov’s numbers are correct, it appears that basketball is a expensive sport on a per player basis regardless. Look at UNC’s womens bball program and you’ll find it is also their second most expensive sport per player (behind mens bball). I can give UNC a pass because their women’s bball team is so good, but look at ECU and App St. and you’ll see the same trend — they’re spending the most per player on basketball (men’s and women’s). I’d let bygones be bygones when it comes to past budgets on women’s bball.

    9) Looking at the per player spend another way, should we not be concerned that men’s bball typically receives 50% more in per player spend than women’s bball? Yes, I understand that it generates more revenue, but that suggests some disparity there.

  23. tjfoose1 07/21/2009 at 6:43 PM #

    “I wonder how some people get through the day with the conclusions they draw out of thin air.”

    I agree, that phenomenon seems rear its head on most blogs and boards.

    This entry is a straight forward, matter of fact, simple posting of the facts. Period. Even with the explicit inclusion of the obvious…

    “I am planning on keeping these entries focused on statistics without any commentary but in the case of women’s basketball the obvious factor of Kay Yow’s health has to be kept in mind.”

    …some still manifested their own hate tinted conclusions from their colored glasses.

    But I agree with others, Fowler should get a complete pass here. If anything, he showed some courage (whether the choice was right or wrong) in going outside the program to hire Harper. The pressure was on, and the easy, safe pick would have been Glance.

    Fowler apparently looked at the program as OUR, ie Wolfpack Nation’s, program, and not Kay Yow’s program. Though Kay Yow most certainly deserved all the accolades, honors, praise, etc. that she received, and more, I think Fowler was correct on this one.

  24. hball57 07/21/2009 at 7:00 PM #

    I would like to comment on the decline in WBB over the years with a little bit of inside information. I had a daughter who was a D1 basketball player who had received some interest from NC State and was an AAU coach with several D1 prospects on it.

    Coach Yow was a great person and a very good coach. However I do not believe she adapted with the times as far as coaching philosophy and had a “profile” for the type of player she recruited. I feel as if she limited herself both in strategy as well as recruiting.

    But the explosion in college basketball participation in HS is a big issue to me. In the first half of Coach Yow’s career, you could beat the bushes and find talent. But as the participation increased, and AAU basketball for girls exploded, NC State was caught off guard, in my opinion. Other schools recruited nationally while NC State recruited regionally.

    There is another issue i would like to bring up. Some schools are very successful with their national reputation. NC State has never been able to seize that. We know the usual suspects – Duke, UNC, Kansas, UCLA. In woman’s basketball you can say UConn, Tennessee, Texas, Rutgers, Stanford. I think it is important to realize that it is not all about winning. It is the personality of the coaches involved and the visibility they have.

    I think Coach Yow didn’t market herself like coaches at those other schools. Auriemma, Summit, Hatchell, Stringer, Landers, Conrad, Van der Meer all are good at promoting their programs. Coach Yow was more quiet and reserved and, until the battle with cancer, really wasn’t out promoting the brand. I think also that our director of woman’s, Nora Lynn Finch, was an obstacle in the promotion of WBB. athletics.

    Some people like to attack the amount of money spent on WBB and I think they are way off base. WBB has the second highest amount of full scholarships under NCAA guidelines, more than MBB. To have a top flight program, you must incur those type of expenses. And many want to complain about trips to certain places for tournaments without knowing the financial arrangements for those.

    I believe we have the right type of coach in place. She understands how a top program is run and what you have to do to market the program. I believe with some new ideas, with the current players, we will see a big improvement in our team. I also predict that she will increase the revenue in our program as well. She had a great teacher in Pat Summitt.

  25. packalum44 07/21/2009 at 10:14 PM #

    Fact is, somehow someway, Fowler’s incompetence permeates all sports. Yow underachieved for several reasons. But I can guarantee, one of them was a redneck with a gray mustache.

    Whether it be his lack of motivating his subordinates or more direct actions (or lack thereof). Doesn’t matter. When your leader is a loser, its going to trickle down. At the least, you will not live up to your full potential.

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