YOU Write the Story – How did UCLA and UNC-CH do it?

Lavin released

As many of you already experience and recognize, we feel this blog has some of the most insightful readers and commentors of any fan blog on the internet. It is a regular experience to read an entry on our blog and learn a lot more from the resulting conversation in the comments section than you learn from the original author.

With this said, I thought that it would be interesting to introduce a new excercise whereby we engage all of the talent that we have at the blog and ask for you to take a more active role in what ultimately is posted as entries here. (I will be traveling and won’t be around much this week so it is a good time to give this a try).

Here is what we are going to do — I am going to provide a topic and ask our readers to provide comments on this topic. We hope that the comments will be diverse and will include links, statistics, editorial comments and maybe even some personal experiences. Some of you may choose to take a stab at writing an entire article; others may choose just to provide some key statistics and records. We hope to ultimately copy and paste the information and commentary and create an important entry for the blog that we can add to our archives for future use. (Don’t hesitate to run some key word searches on SFN while making use of our archives!)

The topic today is brought to us by two members of this year’s Final Four – UCLA and UNC-CH. Today, the Bruins and the Tarheels are coached by Ben Howland and Roy Williams, respectively. But, just a few years ago both institutions had different faces leading the charge. (In fact, Carolina went through a seven year stretch where they employed four different basketball coaches and ALL FOUR of them reached the Final Four).

Since this is an NC State blog, let’s tie NC State to this by asking the question – over the last 15 years, how has the manner in which NC State’s “leadership” has managed our Basketball program compare to the decisions and moves that UCLA (Steve Lavin) and UNC (Matt Doherty and Bill Guthridge) have chosen. Particularly, how does Lee Fowler’s decisions to retain Herb Sendek from 2000-2006 compare to UCLA and UNC’s decisions?

To get you started, allow us to turn your attention to this old SFN entry that we found with a five second search of our database. In addition to some great editorial comments in the discussion section that would be relevant to this, the following summary for Steve Lavin’s career at UCLA was provided.

Lavin’s quick record: 7 Seasons; 6 NCAA Bids; 5 Sweet 16’s; 1 Elite Eight

Lastly, if you weren’t online much this weekend then we ask that you play around a little and do some reading. For example, we’ve got a couple of “bytes” entries that received a lot of attention on Saturday and on Friday.

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144 Responses to YOU Write the Story – How did UCLA and UNC-CH do it?

  1. Ismael 03/31/2008 at 10:54 AM #

    I think something that needs to be considered (if it hasn’t sufficiently) is just a difference in cultures between schools. No one in the Wolfpack Club (WPC) looks at the documented and obvious performance of the teams as a whole, and football and basketball in particular, with any sort of satisfaction or accomplishment. I don’t know for sure, i am only imagining. Over the last 25 years, nothing of note has really been accomplished and more often the performances have been dismal. So why are there no shakeups?

    It can ONLY be, i think, cultural. It seems now there is a disconnect between what NCSU administrators expect and what an NCSU fan expects. Tom O’Brien fell into our laps, he was a total accident by dent of a sour relationship with an Administration in a cold place (BC) and the desire to move/retire to a relatively warm place (somewhere within easy driving distance of his vacation home in South Carolina). It was clearly not because Administrators in NCSU demanded not only that the then current coach (Amato) produce or there would be consequences but, more importantly, would they have been able/eager/ready to go and hire a coach with even the modicum of gravitas that TOB possessed. My guess is: No. They would have hired a mid-major guy or someone who was proven like Paul Johnson but did not have the pedigree of someone like Butch Davis.

  2. wufpup76 03/31/2008 at 10:54 AM #

    ^Good point, Billy … If Mays doesn’t break his foot and Chapel Hill makes the NCAA tourny I wonder if anything would’ve been different

    I remember when Mays broke his foot … Chapel Hill had a good start to the season but were playing Iona (of Jimmy V fame) in a preseason tourny at Madison Square Garden … Iona was playing well, Mays goes down, Iona pulls away for the win … Something else interesting, I believe Iona was coached by Jeff Ruland at the time and he openly applied for our job the other year just before leading Iona to one of their worst seasons ever … weird, wacky stuff

  3. Ismael 03/31/2008 at 11:00 AM #

    I always felt Doh was let-go not so much because he was bad, he wasn’t that bad, but that Ol’Roy was who the ‘Holes wanted anyway to replace Dean. Also, Guthridge was more of a stop-gap, fill in the ‘Holes (pun intended) hire…i think its misleading to believe that UNC is so “competetive” that “they had 4 coaches in 7 years.” If that’s the case, their football coach hiring decisions must be equally questioned (and they were by ‘Hole fans) for how long they kept around people like Torbush and what’s-his-face, the last one.

  4. wufpup76 03/31/2008 at 11:05 AM #

    “what’s-his-face, the last one.”

    ^BTB … Bunting the Belly! … or Bunting the Beast

  5. choppack1 03/31/2008 at 11:12 AM #

    Don’t underestimate how the media helped bring down Doh. Dave Glenn chose to publish the stories about Doh in order to make the 3 year termination more justified. Heck, we didn’t in fire HWSBN and we got roasted over the coals.

  6. redfred2 03/31/2008 at 11:54 AM #

    I don’t have time to read all of the posts, but all of this stuff about graduating players, the high road, and the integrity of the program, and blah, blah, blah, is absolute nonsense. NC State is no better, or no worse than, the majority of major college athletics in that aspect. It’s all a big front that’s set up to hide the truth with regards to their inability to actually maintain a program that is worthy of it’s hertitage, along with all of the money that is wasted to “promote” and perpetuate losing athletics across the board.

    You folks just keep on believing that NCSU is somehow above everyone else in that regard, it’s working perfectly for the administrators.

  7. kyjelly 03/31/2008 at 11:56 AM #

    if it was us and doh was coaching he would still be here,and you all would say well he bleeds this and that and I know doh wants to win,its the ADs fault,the stars are not in proper order yet in the sky,oh lets give him a chance to “GROW” into the job.
    But in sucessfull or even mediocore programs it is a bottom line thing based on results,what is shown on the floor and perhaps even a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel.Perhaps other places also like to see some accountability instead of Blaming your 19 to 22 y/o players always.
    And we are not by any means mediocore based on these last 2 seasons!

  8. blackdom 03/31/2008 at 12:04 PM #

    love the vintage ncsu apparel ad,shoot all we have is vintage and memories

  9. Noah 03/31/2008 at 12:11 PM #

    D’oh wasn’t so bad?

    By what measure?

  10. StateFans 03/31/2008 at 12:25 PM #

    noah: SUNY-Stonybrook or Binghampton?

  11. Howler 03/31/2008 at 12:36 PM #

    Our history since Valvano appears schizophrenic. The administration back then acted too quickly to rid the University of a proven coach. Then, we stuck with the next two coaches far too long. Les should have been, at most, a one or two year transition guy. H*** S***** should have been gone after his fifth season. Then the University hired an alum with questionable credentials rather than looking for and choosing the best mid-major candidate who wanted the job. If history has taught us anything, and if Lowe does right the ship, Fowler will keep him on too long.

    I do not understand why NCSU treats the basketball program as if our University is just one of the many struggling for basketball recognition. We have an amazing tradition and heritage in our b-ball program. We not only deserve better, but we deserve the best.

    I cannot see our buddies in blue treating their programs the same way. The Doherty example is the most obvious one. “This isn’t going to work. Thanks, but you’ve got to go, and we’ve got to win championships.”

  12. Howler 03/31/2008 at 12:37 PM #

    “and if Lowe does NOT right the ship” – sorry.

  13. Noah 03/31/2008 at 12:49 PM #

    “noah: SUNY-Stonybrook or Binghampton?”

    Maybe it was Binghampton. Whichever it was, they had just started a varsity squad that year. They shouldn’t have been hanging around the JV squad from NC Central, let alone an ACC squad.

  14. Noah 03/31/2008 at 12:57 PM #

    Speaking of decisiveness and fast action at UNC, they were extremely close to severing ties with Mack Brown after just two years as well.

    After they lost to Navy on Homecoming weekend in 1989, Brown thought he was gone for good. He said that he went back to his car and just cried like a little baby. After that year (concluding with the 41-0 debacle against Dook), Brown was apparently told by the AD (swofford?) that he HAD to produce the next year.

    They went 6-5 and they tied national champs Georgia Tech and Brown saved his job.

    The lesson I would take away from that is that a good AD knows when it’s time for patience and when it’s time to cut your losses. I don’t think you can have some hard, fast rule on how long a guy gets before you fire him. Circumstances and good judgement have to be your guide, not some arbitrary number.

    My personal belief is that Fowler is perfectly aware of his shortcomings and knows that he’s not very good at seperating the wheat from the chaffe in the hiring process. Everytime he has to make a hire or a fire, it exposes this weakness…so he keeps his exposure to a minimum.

  15. 66pack 03/31/2008 at 1:02 PM #

    I must disagree with Howler—ncsu does not deserve success–you make your success.

  16. choppack1 03/31/2008 at 1:38 PM #

    “I do not understand why NCSU treats the basketball program as if our University is just one of the many struggling for basketball recognition. We have an amazing tradition and heritage in our b-ball program. We not only deserve better, but we deserve the best.”

    Deserves got nothing to do w/ it. NC State’s is one of only a handful of schools that have won national championships w/ 2 different coaches. However, NC State hasn’t had a sustained era of excellence for anyone 50 or younger. IMHO, this is our biggest problem. The only reason Duke has entered the elite is because of Coach K. UNC became great w/ Dean Smith. They really struck gold when one of his proteges w/ extensive ties to the university, appears to be just as good, if not better than Deano.

    NC State desperately needs this coach in hoops.

  17. RickJ 03/31/2008 at 2:00 PM #

    “SFN: We’ll add a third criteria of the current need – intelligence. I don’t mean the raw sense of the word. But, more of a real-world intelligence that has an innate ability to understand the realities of our situations and how those realities compare to other universities.”

    Between 1986 & 1992 we lost three of the brightest people imaginable using the above definition of intelligence. Willis Casey, Jim Valvano and Dick Sheridan were just exceptional individuals that we have never come close to replacing.

    Casey hired Sloan, Valvano, Sheridan & Holtz for the revenue sports. Among others, he hired Easterling, Esposito, Yow, Guzzo & Geiger on the non-revenue side. Maybe of even more importance is the fact that he hired Kiffin and Reed (Poulton actually hired Reed) and gave each 3 years to establish a program. Reed was a no-brainer after 3 straight 3 – 8 records but Kiffin actually had 2 winning seasons out of 3 including the last one but was let go because Casey was convinced we would not have great success with him. In both cases, neither coach was allowed to twist in the wind of uncertainty for very long.

    I can promise you that Willis Casey would not have fired Herb after his fifth season – he would have fired him after his 3rd or 4th year.

  18. BillyVest 03/31/2008 at 2:07 PM #

    Our history since Valvano appears schizophrenic.

    No it is very predictable. As long as no one is screwing up off the field, the Admin. leaves them alone. This starts with the BoT, AD and goes all the way down to the coaches and towel boys. Our problem is the serious gap between fans expectations and what the Administration is willing to deliver.

    I think the gap between the Admin and the fans started with Turner. Turner was awful. Everyone hated him, when I was at NCSU. The Admin kept spinning press releases about how great Turner was. He gets canned from Vandy and I’m not sure about his fate at UofW, but the fans hate him.

    Unless the fans revolt and stop attending games. Even if you can’t get out of your LTR’s and limit contributions, there’s nothing that will force the Administration’s hand, unless fans stand up and make themselves heard. Boycott a game at CF this year. No one shows up. Boycott a game at the RBC Center. I’m not talking about paltry attendance numbers, but for one game no one goes, just to send a message.

  19. packgrad93 03/31/2008 at 2:07 PM #

    “Someone’s going to have to point to some things I’m obviously overlooking to make me think Lowe is close.”

    when he’s had a decent PG he’s been fine. His system requires a good PG.

  20. roandaddy 03/31/2008 at 2:10 PM #

    Here is my wild hair thought.. both UCLA and UNX benefit from vast amounts of marketing!! What I mean is.. announcers will always throw praise to a UCLA and UNX whether is deserved or not. Just like Dickie V is the one may promoter for Duke, the media seems to have a love fest with these schools b/c of their past. As a viewer, you are told you are to hold these schools in awe b/c of their long history of success. This holds a lot of sway with the kids coming out of high school. Sorry if this falls in the “vast right wing conspiracy” type idea.

    NC State had a good year and even on the anniversary its promoted more as a “fluke” than an accomplishment. (see yahoo sports) Its like a back handed slap to say “they didn’t really deserve it and it won’t happen again”.

    As for coaching.. UNX benefits from having one VERY long tenured coach who had many assistant offspring who can be pulled back into the flock. Roy is the best of the flock and a darn good coach. The men in between were just place holders til Roy came over from Kansas.

    Bottom line: we will always face an uphill battle with the media and when the opportunity to knock the wobbling giant came along, we failed to act. We decided to wobble with them as well. It will be INCREDIBLY important to act fast when Duke starts to wobble as they are starting too!! BUT don’t expect a full fall either, State must be willing to step into the gap if Duke falls off to show we are UNX’s rival!!

  21. graywolf 03/31/2008 at 2:17 PM #

    “I can promise you that Willis Casey would not have fired Herb after his fifth season – he would have fired him after his 3rd or 4th year.”

    Correct!

  22. Rick 03/31/2008 at 2:18 PM #

    [lee fowler]Intelligence is a highly over rated attribute [/lee fowler]

  23. Ismael 03/31/2008 at 2:56 PM #

    Noah, the “D’oh wasn’t so bad” comment was based on he didn’t go 0-30 and that the players Roy Williwams won the National Championship with were largely players D’oh recruited. I really think he would have righted the ship. But once Roy became available it was a no-brainer for the tarhole brain (fart) trust.

  24. Rochester 03/31/2008 at 2:58 PM #

    I can’t give Doherty too much credit for recruiting the guys that won the title. You or I could recruit to Carolina. Just about every kid out there wants to play there because they almost always win. If they had kept Doherty another year, kids would have started leaving and his recruiting would have tailed off, because the players openly hated the guy.

  25. wufpup76 03/31/2008 at 3:01 PM #

    “noah: SUNY-Stonybrook or Binghampton?”

    It was Binghamton … I remember watching the game w/ some Hole friends … Binghamton should’ve won

    Not too long later we had the GT vs. Chapel Hill game on FSN South … Phil Ford was one of the analysts and he delivered his famous (or infamous) “We win! We win!!!” line at the end of that game

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